HOVE-TO

Rich · Jul 6, 2005

dayshapes are key...

I agree with RichH on this one, once you post the proper dayshape, surrounding vessels must take evasive action. vessels which are hove-to are no more underway than anchored vessels swinging with the tide or disabled vessels that are drifting. If you've hove to in order to get up your sails, then presumably you've used the good judgement not to carry out that maneuver in the face of impending crossing situations from other boats. If you're truly hove to, then your sails are not filling and it should not be clear to other sailboats just what "tack" you are on (in which case they should be assuming you have right of way, so it all comes out the same). Though using dayshapes is a hassle, if you are not underway for any length of time one should consider having a set available and using them. Likewise, even though it's not required in the Inland rules, if you are motoring for any length of time with sails up it would also be a good idea to display the "steaming cone" (the cone-shaped dayshape). If more of us got into the habit, more of the boats around us would understand the symbols.

Jack4865 · Jul 6, 2005

Dayshapes

Ok, I'll be the one to look stupid. Could someone please describe the dayshapes and the circumstances to use each one? I have a black spherical shaped device that I've yet to hoist up to indicate when I'm at anchor during daylight. I want to learn more about these dayshapes.JackP.S. Excellent discussion! Thank you Paul.

Stu Jackson · Jul 6, 2005

Recreational "Heaving To"

Paul, great reference to Boat Safe, a very good website. One that some of the "other" people we're discussing here should read, I know I do periodically.Anyway, given the input, it also seems to me that "heave to" may have a different meaning to different people.You may recall Don Guillette's recent heaving-to thread, still current with this one. His description is that heave to is a safety maneuver in heavy weather, and I agree - that's where the idea came from as I understand it.However, what we seem to be discussing here on this thread is what I'll suggest we call a "convenience maneuver" for lunch, resting between hard beats, etc.Therefore, that's why I suggested earlier that this type of "convenience" heave to is more like "still sailing," as compared to the original heavy weather definition of trying to stop your boat because of heavy winds and seas.I would assume that some would suggest that they are the same. I'm trying to make a differentiation because in the heavy weather variety, there's generally not a whole lot of traffic around (you're not so happy to be there yourself!).I particularly liked the common sense approach. Logistically, even if we all had the day shapes, the amount of time spent in that position (a "convenience" heave to) is of such a relatively short duration that I doubt ifs any of us would run the shapes up the yardarm (ha! I've been wanting to use that phrase here on the forum for years *5).Interesting discussion and great input. Thanks.BTW, the heave to position, "convenience" variety, works just great for man-overboard drills. Try it sometime.Stu

JB · Jul 6, 2005

Heave to

I'm a new sailor still learning, but it seems to me heaving-to in bad weather, heavy winds, and big swells would endanger the boat. Wouldn't it be safer to keep the boat moving and under control? Head into big swells, and the wind to keep the boat from getting knocked down. Anyone ever been in that situation and successfully hove to?

Seattle Scott · Jul 6, 2005

Heave to is just a maneuver

as Stu points out. Paul asks if heaving to is an exceptional circumstance, such that the boat could be said to be not under command. I would say that depends on why the boat executed the heave to maneuver. If you lost your windward shroud, tacked and hove to to get your heart out of your throat and back where is belongs, I would say your are not under command. Or your 8 year old puts a gash in his forehead falling in the cabin, anything that is urgent enough for you to abandon your watch. The flip side is you hove to as a "convenience" as Stu aptly put it, to lunch, to change the CD on the stereo, to give your tiller arm a rest, or figure out what went crash down below. I'd say you are still under command, still "sailing" . But if you did a convenience heave to on port tack when there was no boat within 10 minutes of you and you are moving down wind at less than 1/2 knt, and another boat comes straight at you over a half mile distance making 4-5 knts, with no limitation on ability to maneuver, no other traffic, while you would be the burdened boat, I would not feel compelled to give way or avoid.An example. This week end I was tacking my way to windward with another boat slightly downwind working to windward also. Sunny day, perfect 8-10 knt wind. Whenever were on a crossing course I was favored and the other boat tacked well out from me, just about the time I would start to watch it. Perfect conduct on the other driver. Well there was another boat about two miles to windward, that was significantly larger than mine and my tacking buddy. We were both closing the gap with the larger windward boat, and I thought I was sailing really great. Then I figured out that the big boat with sails up and drawing, was not really moving. Both myself and my tacking buddy sailed within 50 yards of the stalled big boat, saw it was hove to on port tack with 6 in the cockpit having lunch. We both just avoided the hove to boat, gave them a wave. There was no exchange of stand on or give way instructions.

a poor old sailor · Jul 6, 2005

Paul, Stu, and Scott are correct

A boat that claims "not under command" status (and is marked that way) had better be able to defend that decision if any damage and subsequent litigation occurs. Of course, that judgment can be quite subjective.Heaving to because of an equipment malfunction, injury, or heavy-weather tactic would probably pass muster, while a lunch break would not.

Liam · Jul 6, 2005

Dayshapes??

Does anyone know... is the use of dayshapes "suggested" or "required"?I don't presently have them on my boat. I will definately get some and use them as I often use the diesel auxillery while sailing and anchor for days at a time.

Ranger Paul18580 · Jul 6, 2005

Heave to and maneuverability

I thought that the overall general rule of thumb is that stand on goes to the boat with the least maneuverability. The port/starboard type rules are effective only when there is a tie on maneuverability. That is why a sailboat is stand on to a small power boat. That is why a freighter is stand on to a sailboat.Clearly a hove to boat less maneuverable than a non-hove to moving sailboat. If I encountered a hove to sailboat, I would assume the give way position without even thinking about it. Just like I would be give way with a buoy.This is similar to encountering a sailboat with a blown out chute and a crew struggling to control the sail. I don't care who is port or starboard, I would presume I was give way.Likewise if I was starboard and a tall ship was port, I would still give way far in advance so the tall ship knew my intentions. Just because I am stand on doesn't imply that I'm stupid and going to insist on my technical rights no matter what. Courtesy is the byword.

Liam · Jul 6, 2005

Makes sense.

Hey Ranger Paul,That totally makes sense! Rule number one should always be... "Avoid all collisions."Rule number two is definately..."Don't be stupid."

Herb Parsons · Jul 6, 2005

Dayshapes Etc.

Dayshapes are required. I hear in some areas, the CG doesn't hesitate to write tickets.The comment " That is why a freighter is stand on to a sailboat" is simply not true, unless the freighter is in a restricted waterway, or has some other circumstances. He's just another power boat on the open water.That said, I agree with the rest of the statement about commone sense. I don't care if I'm stand on or not, I'm going around, WAY around, the big boats.

Herb Parsons · Jul 6, 2005

Under Way vs Making Way

At the risk of sounding picky and argumentative, the statement "vessels which are hove-to are no more underway than anchored vessels swinging with the tide or disabled vessels that are drifting" is also incorrect.A vessel "under way" is one which is not connected to the land. Anchoring, tying up to a pier or dock, etc makes a boat no longer "under way". A boat that is hove to, or drifing, are both "under way", but may (or may not) be making way.I know it sounds picky, but these words have meanings. A common language is the heart of communication.

Steve Christensen · Jul 6, 2005

Hove to is not normally NUC

The USCG used to have a web page where you could ask questions, and I once asked essentially this same question of them. The response was that a boat that is NUC must be so due to exceptional circumstances - NOT ust stopping to have lunch or a nap. So being hove to just to take a break does not make any difference. You are still legally underway and technically capable of making way to avoid any boats for whom you are the give-way vessel. In particular they said it was not acceptable for a skipper to hove to and exhibit NUC lights or shapes just so he could take a nap. Of course if you are hove to because of equipment failure then you really could be NUC - in which case you have to exhibit the day shapes or lights to warn other boats that might be expecting you to move or give way.Steve Christensen

Ranger Paul18580 · Jul 7, 2005

Rusyniak Paul - Hove to right of way

We may have to get more input from others on the exact rules. I am planning on talking to my brother-in-law who teaches boating subjects (safety, navigation, etc.) and have him contribute.For myself, I often generalize for the conditions in which I sail. I am really lake bound to lakes in Upstate California and seldom see salt water. If I see salt water, it is in a bay where freighters have restricted channels.Also 'The comment " That is why a freighter is stand on to a sailboat" is simply not true, unless the freighter is in a restricted waterway, or has some other circumstances. He's just another power boat on the open water.' was included in a below thread.My understanding: Sailboats are always stand on except for freighters in a restricted waterway. This is why I said sailboats were stand on to a small power boats but freighters were stand on to a sailboat.I don't know how big a power boat has to get to become a freighter in a restricted waterway. I also presume a large cruise ship in a restricted waterway satisfies the freighter rule. Probably the rule really refers to any vessel that is restricted to a channel???That said, I think it is *terribly* important to know who is stand on and who is give way. Whenever you get to the situation where a collision could occur if the stand on boat alters course, the stand on boat should stand on as long as possible until it becomes apparent that the give way boat is not going to give way. We have all probably been in the situation where both boats alter course worsening the situation...plus now neither knows what the other should do or is going to do.But, I will still alter course if I am stand on if I see that the other boat is big or whatever...but I will do this only when there is enough room so the other boat clearly sees my intention to alter course even though I am stand on. I have even "over altered" my course to signal my intention then steer back closer to my original course.Further, my H216 is relatively small and highly maneuverable. I am simply not the type of person to force a larger, less maneuverable vessel to go to a lot of hassle to alter course just because I am stand on.

Warren M · Jul 7, 2005

Dayshapes...

I'd like to hear from the group as to who owns, and raises, dayshapes. FWIT, the only "dayshape" per se,that I own as a recreational sailor, is a distress flag that I (thankfully) have never had to hoist...

Herb Parsons · Jul 7, 2005

"Sailboats are <not> always stand on"

"Sailboats are always stand on except for freighters in a restricted waterway"This is another misconception. The stand-on is not restricted to "freighters", but to all vessels restricted in their ability to manuever. BTW, this restricted ability is not a "judgement call" type thing, but is defined by the Coast Guard. The problem with these rules (and the Coast Guard will tell you this) is that you can't use commonly understood definitions.Also, there are other instance where a boat other than the sailboat are the stand on vessel. Fishing vessels when fishing, and vessels not under command come quickly to mind.

Steve Christensen · Jul 7, 2005

Hove to is not normally NUC

The USCG used to have a question/answer section on their web site, and I asked of their experts essentially this exact question: Whether it was legal for a sailboat to hove to and exhibit NUC lights?Their reply was that for a vessel to be NUC there must be exceptional circumstances that prevent it from maneuvering to avoid other vessels when required. These circumstances would NOT include going below to take a nap or have lunch. Unless you have a legitimate breakdown that prevents you from maneuvering (like a broken shroud), any sailboat hove to is legally still underway, and considered capable of maneuvering to avoid other vessels when required. Steve Christensen

HOVE-TO

Rich

Jack4865

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Paul J. Rusyniak

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Paul J. Rusyniak

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Stu Jackson

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JB

Seattle Scott

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a poor old sailor

Liam

Paul J. Rusyniak

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Ranger Paul18580

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Liam

Herb Parsons

Herb Parsons

Steve Christensen

Paul J. Rusyniak

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Ranger Paul18580

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Warren M

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Herb Parsons

Steve Christensen