HOVE-TO

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

On most of the threads regarding heaving-to, there’s at least one post that suggests heaving-to with the wind coming over the starboard rail, with at least the implication that the boat would then be privileged.Is that correct, that a hove-to sailboat has privilege over a sailboat under way, solely based on starboard beam to the wind? For the sake of my question, please leave out considerations of power boats, restricted channels or water depth, boats engaged in fishing, towing, etc.Thinking about two boats hove-to, it seems to me that the windward boat should be burdened, since she’s drifting down on the other boat. Wind coming over either beam should have nothing to do with it.Thinking about one boat hove-to and the other under way, it seems logical that the boat under way should be burdened, without consideration of port or starboard tack of either boat.Comments?Pauls/v The Lord Nelson

 

[a poor old sailor]

good question

First off, I would hope to never be hove-to in an area where there might be other traffic.That being said, considering that a hove-to boat is not exaclty under immediate control, one might be able to make the case for it being a "vessel not under command", lighting/marking it as such, and enjoying (at a bit of a risk) right-of-way/stand-on status over everyone but a lighthouse.

 

[liam]

underway

I believe that a sailboat that is HOVE-TO is technically underway. Although a boat that is HOVE-TO is not immediately manuverable, it can be very quickly. Also, to other boats, it is not immediately apparent that the vessel is HOVE-TO. In fact, until you get really close and know what a HOVE-TO boat looks like, it appears to be underway.

 

[a poor old sailor]

underway, not making way

A hove-to boat is basically adrift. Thus, it is "underway" but "not making way". There is not much difference between being hove-to and having had anchor problems - in light of the regs.But, the fact that most others would assume that since the sails are up, it is moving as a "vessel under sail" makes it a dicey issue. Day shapes or proper lights indicating "not under command" are just not widely known - nor are the rules of the road or pecking orders.The status of any boat can change at any time, and I don't believe that the regs directly address the ease or availablity of change. A drifting boat is "not under command" until it gets it engine working (or sails up). A hove-to boat can not control itself, i.e. "not under command", until the sail is brought across, the helm is brought back, and it gets some way on....PS Terms in quotes are, I believe, the phrases that the colregs use.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Neither of which answers the ?

And neither does this one.Just a story: we hove to between two races. Another boat, who also participated in the races, dropped their jib and were sailing around on main alone. The skipper was down below. In the course of about five minutes, my crew and I watched this boat approach us, slowly but surely, closer and closer, and finally wham bang they slammed into our side. I was flabbergasted. We were hardly moving and they'd sailed at least half a mile and crashed into us. We were on port tack but so were they, we were upwind but not moving. I believe that Liam is right and that unfortunately too many people just don't know what's going on. BTW, the other skipper's answer?: "I was down below and didn't get up in time enough and the crew didn't know how to turn the wheel." Scary but true story - his insurance paid for the damage.StuPS re: right of way - I agree with poor old - if you're hardly moving and there's lots of traffic around, you shouldn't be there. Why even make an issue out of it? Although I'd be interested in the answer to the original question. We usually heave to on starboard tack since that puts the head downwind, down hill and down below.If you're hove to and anything is bearing down on you, either you shouldn't have positioned yourself there, or you just plain ought to move. Re my story above, everything happened in such slow motion and we just could believe that he wouldn't simply turn away. We know the skipper, we know the boat, we knew he was waiting for Race 2 to start, ti was NOT crowded, there were no other boats around, no shipping, just a nice pleasant day and a break between races. By the time we realized he was "out of control" (brain fade, big time), it was too late: we couldn't turn downwind and gybe, we'd hit him, we couldn't blow the jib because we didn't have time to get speed up to then tack away,

 

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

MORE what ifs

I should have added a couple of more conditions to my original scenario:1. It’s daytime, with excellent visibility - - - lights/lighting schemes are not part of the equation.2. the sailboat heaving-to is not doing so in a heavily trafficked area, but there are certainly other sailboats out and about (think about this Independence Day Weekend, if you were lucky to have nice weather - - - were there many inland lakes with NO traffic?).I agree with POS’ remarks about being able to identify a boat hove-to, just as it’s difficult to recognize a boat that’s motor sailing, but that’s another subject.In Stu’s example, what would have happened if the other insurance carrier hadn’t paid off and the case had gone to court? Was Stu’s the burdened vessel since she was windward of the other boat and the other boat was presumably more close hauled than Stu”sI firmly believe that good judgment and common courtesy should play a large part in the “right” answer.Please believe me, I’m not trying to start an argument. I’m only trying to learn!!!Pauls/v The Lord Nelson

 

[a poor old sailor]

Stu was at fault?!?

I believe that a direct interpretation of the colregs would have put Stu's boat at fault. They did not properly identify themselves (dayshapes in the rigging) as a boat "not under command" and as such should have been considered as under sail. Being the windward of two sail boats, it was their responsibility to "give way".But in a situation such as that, one would hope that commen sense would prevail and that a court would have sided with Stu in spite of the Colregs.Although there is one rule that trumps all others: If you can do anything to avoid a collision, you must!

 

[Herb Parsons]

Under Way

Poor is right, a hove to boat is underway, but not making way. I would say that anytime a boat appears to be under command, but is not, it is the captain's responsibility to make it clear that the boat is not under command.In Stu's case though, it wouldn't have mattered. The captain of the other boat never saw him, and I would say if the crew didn't know how to turn it, they didn't know how to identify it as not under command.

 

[Big Windy]

Heave To

Here is the definition from Marisafe:Heave To:A foul weather technique for making a boat steer itself comfortably or make liitle or no headway, in which the sails are minimized (usually reefed or backed) and power is minimized.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Hove to is NOT stopped

Yeah, maybe it could have been a problem if the other guy didn't pony up fairly. We thought he was only sailing over to say hello between races. That's why we didn't reset anything as he got closer.I feel that a boat that is hove to, regardless of what Don Guillette may say, is STILL MOVING. Don's idea about a slick 90 degrees abeam a boat is simply not real world about the balance issues for a boat that is hove to, nor does it reflect any of my experiences in, albeit all Catalinas (22, 25 & now 34), boats. They side-slip but make HEADWAY at about a knot or a bit more or less, as well as LOTS of leeway because of the backed jib.Soooo, I don't "feel" that the "not under command" is the right call, I feel that the skipper of a boat that is hove to IS still moving and thus has the same responsibility as everyone else who is sailing. That's just my "feeling" having 25 years experience of doing the heave to and dodging all sorts of boats. It's NOT my read on rules or regulations. It is why we keep "sailing" when hove to.And, based on the story I told above, since I was on port tack, and he was leeward (regardless of whether he had his jib up or not), I should have stayed out of his way.Remember, as I said, we did think he was coming over for a friendly visit. And that's WHY "he" hit "us", because he assumed his responsibility in knowing it was his fault because his crew didn't control his boat by turning away. They just had their main up, but the helmsman didn't tell the crew to dump the mainsheet or traveler when they were hit by higher winds as they got closer to us. He just couldn't bear off because of the wind pressure on the mainsail, even though he claimed he had the wheel turned all the way to starboard. Their port side hit our starboard side, midships.If it had been someone we didn't know, we would have gotten out of his way. Period.In addition, you DO have some maneuverability when hove to - adjust the mainsheet or the wheel.Great discussion, can't wait to find out the real "legal" answer.Stu

 

[Bob]

Additionally,

The skipper Stu speaks of would have been in bad shape if he had gone overboard with a crew who did not know how to maneuver the boat. I wonder if they were up on any other emergency procedures...

 

[Seattle Scott]

Being hove to doesn't change a thing

on the stand on or give way analisis. You are either up wind or down wind from other boats, and on port or starboard tack. Stu's insurance paid because because the other boat didn't attempt to avoid a collision. Stu "should" have given way, when he did not, the other boat should have avoided the collision, which would have been simple to do, since Stu was just sitting there. If I was hove to in a place where boats could easily avoid me, say lots of room and little traffic, I wouldn't give way if I was the burdened boat. The only exception would be if I determined that a stand on boat could not avoid me, such as having obvious equipment problems.

 

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

SCOTT…

Did you really mean to say “…I wouldn't give way if I was the burdened boat.”?Pauls/v The Lord Nelson

 

[Big Windy]

Common Sense

I hate to state the obvious, but if I was in any of the situations noted above...I do not care who is heaved to, who is on a port tack, who is on a starboard tack, who is 'actually' sailing, who is 'actually' motoring...if I see somebody coming at me, I'm moving, maybe by sail, maybe by power, I'm getting the hell out of the way!I would not, under any circumstance, sit there and try to figure out who has the 'legal' right of way while somebody rams the side of my boat. Common sense says move, I'm moving.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Guys, please listen and lighten up

1. My insurance didn't pay, the other guy did. He chose to do it through his insurance, but would have paid out of his pocket if need be.2. I said I should have and would have moved, but I DID explain why we didn't - we thought he was coming over to say hello.3. I agree that when hove to you're still sailing - I said I would have moved if it had been ANYONE ELSE BUT THAT PARTICULAR BOAT and skipper.Hope this clears that up.I'm still looking for the answer to the original question.And I maintain that I should have moved. The other skipper was NICE ENOUGH to understand and offered to take care of the issue.Let's keep smiling' out there. StuPS Bert, I agree, although at the expense of another little story...Outside of the crowded area of all sorts of boats who were watching the Fleet Week airplane follies a few years ago.We're on starboard tack, an Ericson 38 is on port, both close hauled, light air, maybe going 3 to 4 kts.Getting closer, closer, closer... (Ever happen to any of you?)I hail him, he stares at me and ignores me.Do this twice more.I finally start to bail to duck behind him within three boatlenths away, by turning to port, and he DOES THE SAME THING!!!I turn back to course. He glides by behind me, and then says to me, "I thought I could make it."That's why they do have the rules of the road. And some would respond: "You shouldn't have gotten that close." Well, I couldn't tack away because there was another boat on my starboard hip.Things do happen out there, and I think that defensive driving is the Rule of the Day, everyday.

 

[Dylan Ross]

Rules vs. Liability in a Collision

It looks like there are two issues at hand. Who must give way, and who is liable in the event of a collision resulting in damage. I do not believe there is a strict corrolation between the two. My take on the origional question:A vessel hove to is subject to the same port/starboard, windward/leeward rules as a sailing vessel not hove to.That being said, there is sill an obligation to avoid a collision when reasonably able to do so (common sense), and a hove to vessel should not be all that difficult to dodge.From a liability perspective, although the stand on vessel may have rights, he also has a duty to mitigate damages.If an automobile strikes a jay walker, the driver my not get a ticket but would likely pay the hospital bill.

 

[Seattle Scott]

Stu, I mis-spoke

when I said why your insurance paid. As you stated, the other boat's insurance paid. But the other guy's insurance didn't pay just because he might have asked them to. I guess it paid because you were stopped, and the other guy didn't attempt to avoid, because no watch or lookout being kept.Yea Paul, I would just sit there if I am hove to on port tack and a starboard boat is headed at me. It would take me maybe 20 to 30 seconds to get my boat moving. Meanwhile the other guy can see I am just sitting there and making no effort to move. I suppose if I couldn't see the driver on the other boat I would start getting under way and avoiding. On a positive note, if a burdened boat gets in your way and all you have to do is put a couple fingers on the wheel for a couple of seconds to avoid, just hail the other guy with a "you're good" or "You stand on" or " I'll duck you". Also, its great when the burdened boat lets you know he knows he is burdened, by making a slight course change a minute before you two cross. That's what I do.

 

[RichH]

Rule 27

If you are hove-to and fly the proper shapes/lights, my interpretation is you can sit there like a duck in a snowstorm and be perfectly correct .... and not have to maneuver, etc. Even if you're anchored and dont have the correct dayshape/light, your position is ... *indefensible*, indefensible means you are contributory for damages. And then ask: when was the FIRST time you ever saw a recreational sailboat flying the correct shapes/lights? from Rule 27:(a) A vessel not under command shall exhibit:two all-round red lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen; two balls or similar shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen; when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.;o)

 

[Bob]

Boy Stu,

Given the circumstances, I'd have done exactly what you did. You had a watch in the cockpit, the other guy was essentially singlehanding the boat and absent from the controls. Bad skippering, but good of him to take responsiblity for an accident that HE caused. An additional point about hailing: if the wind is up and the other boat isn't downwind, you have to yell much louder than you would think. A couple of years ago we ended up ducking a port tacker who almost T-boned us in a race, and were scolded afterwards by their skipper for not yelling louder.

 

[Liam]

make intentions known

This is a very interesting discussion. One thing that it brings up for me is the fact that many times I have watched annother boat as it is heading toward me and never clearly had the feeling that the other skipper knew what was going on. I think that sometimes there is a little game of "bluff" going on as some skippers wait until the very last second to respond to a situation. It would be great if all skippers would make what appears to be visual contact and/or coarse changes early that signaled intentions.