House battery recommendations

Kings Gambit · Dec 6, 2022

artleyt115 said:
I understand though I did mention the genny was for last resort situations not for running all the time. again I'm not trying to be rude but I wasn't asking for proper etiquette at an anchorage which again is going off topic (and again not saying its not good information to have but not needed at this moment) . Though thank you for your recommendation, I appreciate your battery advice. Following on with those true deep cycle batteries would you recommend GEL, AGM, Lithium LiFeo4. I don't understand every advantage/ disadvantage, and from what I read on a older post most Lithium batteries need something special to be connected to a dock. Thank you again

Flooded cell.

jssailem · Dec 6, 2022

artleyt115 said:
most Lithium batteries need something special to be connected to a dock.

It is what we do not know that challenges us with the questions we ask..

It is not about a special connection with a dock. The batteries require different controller systems than boats have commonly aboard. They require a specific charging and monitoring systems. They have many advantages, yet they also have considerable costs to build the infrastructures system to support them.

AGM, Gel, and FLAcid batteries have most of the supporting systems readily available to the average boater. The FLA batteries are least expensive. Easiest to adapt or build a system to charge them.

You might find the MaineSail site Marine How To - DIY for Boaters - Marine How To helpful.

Scott T-Bird · Dec 7, 2022

@artleyt115, you can take some of these comments about anchoring etiquette with the grain of salt. Some of us have this notion that pristine anchorages populated only by quiet sailors are everywhere and you will stand out like a sore thumb if you play your radio or TV, or heaven forbid, run your generator. Well, maybe if you trailer to some remote lake in the Adirondacks or find yourself in some secluded location on Lake Champlain ... but I really doubt you will be disturbing anyone on Lake Wallenpaupack if you turn up the volume during a summer evening! I'll bet you already have at least a basic sense of etiquette, and you may be a complete delight to be anchored next to for all I know, so you can just dismiss the browbeating over the generator in my opinion.

The simple answer to your question is that your relatively simple needs on an Oday 26 are probably best served by a pair of Group 27 or Group 31 FLA batteries giving you up to 200 ah of capacity. Be sure to measure the location where the batteries will be placed because space is usually an issue. As many say, 6V Golf Cart batts wired in series for 12V and parallel for efficient capacity will provide the most capacity at the most economical price. I've found that 6V golf cart batts are taller than Group 27 batts and therefore on my Starwind 27, I couldn't fit them in the space available.

AGM batteries are far more expensive and may have some advantages over FLA batteries (you can find discussions about the advantages and disadvantages of AGM very easily on the internet) but they have different charging requirements and it will probably cost you more in related expenses to upgrade your charging system. Is it worth it? In your case, probably not. I've read Mainesail's opinion about AGM batteries and he basically says that with the existence & advantages of LiFePO4 batteries, there is really no reason anymore to consider AGM batteries. I just bought an AGM battery for my start/reserve battery, but that's because I have an existing AGM house bank that came with the boat, and my charging system is already set up for it. You'll spend SO much more for LiFePO batts and related systems that I can't even imagine how you could justify the expense based on your simple needs.

So my suggestion is that you purchase the most ah capacity that you can reasonably fit with FLA batteries and be sure to set up a charging system to keep them charged & topped off while you have the boat on a trailer. Use the generator whenever you must ... I suspect there will never be any complaints!

There really is no need to make this too complicated!

Kings Gambit · Dec 7, 2022

Scott T-Bird said:
@artleyt115 Some of us have this notion that pristine anchorages populated only by quite sailors are everywhere and you will stand out like a sore thumb if you play your radio or TV, or heaven forbid, run your generator.

I don't think that is the notion that "some" of us may have. More like--quiet and pristine, or nearly so, anchorages are rare and relatively distant/remote, as you suggest, and should be cherished. Getting to one and staying long often requires a large commitment of time and effort. We were near Desolation Sound, British Columbia several years in a scenic and peaceful anchorage when some goof ball arrives; makes a lot of noise getting anchored. Then, not long afterward, gets out his remote-control toy speed boat (buzzzz like a weed-eater) and starts running it around the anchorage, for probably half an hour at a time. Because of the echo characteristics in there, it was very loud.

Trailering up to a high-altitude lake for a long weekend of relaxation only to find yourself 200 ft away from a boat with people playing the radio with outside speakers throughout the day and periodically running an outside generator to keep beer cold (or whatever), etc., would be a big disappointment for me.

So, it's up to us to point out things to consider when boating. For example, try packing IPAs that you can enjoy not chilled, or else red wine. Use SunShower to heat water. Use an oil lantern for below or in the cockpit; bring AA batteries to power night accent lights; get a Bluetooth portable (12-volt) speaker for private listening aboard. Use solar panels for continuous charging; up grade your alternator to high amperage for intermittent charging when using the diesel, etc. Keep your noise and carbon "footprints" low, etc. The basic idea is to keep up (maintain) daily your batteries near a high state of charge (mininmize demand). Preserve the natural ambiance of the setting if there is any. If not, then I guess it's the old adage--if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Scott T-Bird · Dec 7, 2022

Kings Gambit said:
I don't think that is the notion that "some" of us may have. More like--quiet and pristine, or nearly so, anchorages are rare and relatively distant/remote, as you suggest, and should be cherished. Getting to one and staying long often requires a large commitment of time and effort. We were near Desolation Sound, British Columbia several years in a scenic and peaceful anchorage when some goof ball arrives; makes a lot of noise getting anchored. Then, not long afterward, gets out his remote-control toy speed boat (buzzzz like a weed-eater) and starts running it around the anchorage, for probably half an hour at a time. Because of the echo characteristics in there, it was very loud.

Trailering up to a high-altitude lake for a long weekend of relaxation only to find yourself 200 ft away from a boat with people playing the radio with outside speakers throughout the day and periodically running a outside generator to keep beer cold (or whatever), etc., would be a big disappointment for me. So, it's up to us to point out things to consider when boating. for example, try packing IPAs that you can enjoy not chilled, or else red wine. Use SunShower to heat water. Use an oil lantern for below or in the cockpit; bring AA batteries to power night accent lights; get a Bluetooth portable (12-volt) speaker for private listening aboard. Use solar panels for charging; up grade your alternator to high amperage for charging when using the diesel, etc. Keep your noise and carbon "footprints" low, etc. The basic idea is to keep up (maintain) daily your batteries near a high state of charge. Preserve the ambiance if there is any. If not, then I guess it's the old adage--if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

You know, this just sounds like problems for over-privileged people. Not many people need the etiquette police breathing their holier-than-thou breath down our necks.

Kings Gambit · Dec 7, 2022

Scott T-Bird said:
You know, this just sounds like problems for over-privileged people. Not many people need the etiquette police breathing their holier-than-thou breath down our necks. Maybe in California or the entire left coast it's necessary to have this self-righteous attitude combined with such a strong need to correct the plebs who disrupt their well-being. Not everybody needs to be told how to behave.

Only "over-privileged" people wish to enjoy the natural world

? Done a lot of camping on hard ground. Parks and pristine nature reserves are for the over-privileged? I'm sorry if NJ and environs have no, or few, places to visit by boat for relative seclusion. If you fought for them, maybe they'd be there. Geeze.

Scott T-Bird · Dec 7, 2022

Over-privileged people traveling by yacht complain about problems that would make a normal person simply roll their eyes!

Scott T-Bird · Dec 7, 2022

Kings Gambit said:
Parks and pristine nature reserves are for the over-privileged?

In a back-handed way, you might have hit the nail on the head ... over-privileged people believe that parks and pristine reserves should not be stained by or shared with plebs who don't behave in the proper manner (as expressed by the self-righteous).

Kings Gambit · Dec 7, 2022

Scott T-Bird said:
Over-privileged people traveling by yacht complain about problems that would make a normal person simply roll their eyes!

Now why would the National Park Service create marine parks and national monuments across waters for public use (i.e., normal people), that can be accessed only by boat (yacht) or seaplane, if, for some reason, the folks visiting by yacht or seaplane may not enjoy them as one might elsewhere, say Yellowstone? There are all kinds of rules there; no pets, no feeding of the animals, no leaving trash around, campfires only in designated places, no fast driving, to name a few. We have noise abatement rules all over the place, even in urban anchorages; noise curfews so to speak. Would we really want a warden coming around (from complaints) to silence noisy boaters at a distant anchorage of a national park as within the city limits? No--it's up to the users to keep it nice, if possible. I think you may be the one in "left field" here. :huh:

dlochner · Dec 7, 2022

All communities, organizations, cultures, and groups of humans have norms and standards that govern behavior. Some are very explicit, many are not. It is the responsibility of the more experienced and older members of a community to transmit those norms and standards to younger and less experienced members of the community.

Within this thread there have been two major themes, helping a new sailor become a more competent sailor by guiding him to the answer to his question, sort of like teaching a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish. The other theme, spawned by the first question had to do with expected norms and standards within the cruising community about certain practices and why those practices have come about. The unwanted intrusion of noise in an other wise quiet anchorage is not always readily understood, especially by inexperienced boaters. Anchoring too close to another boat is another.

Following this practice is just common courtesy. Of course there are those who seem unconcerned other's experience or their imposition on how other's might enjoy their experience. If you choose to be "that guy" there is little consequence for the behavior. Be aware though, that guy may find community support lacking when he is in need.

Unfortunately, this tenor of this thread is beginning to lend support to Godwin's Law. Perhaps it time to take a deep breath lest the bots should come and send someone off on a "vacation."

Scott T-Bird · Dec 7, 2022

I don't think I'm in left field. I'm just not in the habit of telling another sailor how to behave at anchorage simply because they have a portable generator on board. Perhaps I'm over-reacting. Your comments to artley were helpful even if they did seem to be a bit preachy ...

Scott T-Bird · Dec 7, 2022

dlochner said:
All communities, organizations, cultures, and groups of humans have norms and standards that govern behavior. Some are very explicit, many are not. It is the responsibility of the more experienced and older members of a community to transmit those norms and standards to younger and less experienced members of the community.

Within this thread there have been two major themes, helping a new sailor become a more competent sailor by guiding him to the answer to his question, sort of like teaching a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish. The other theme, spawned by the first question had to do with expected norms and standards within the cruising community about certain practices and why those practices have come about. The unwanted intrusion of noise in an other wise quiet anchorage is not always readily understood, especially by inexperienced boaters. Anchoring too close to another boat is another.

Following this practice is just common courtesy. Of course there are those who seem unconcerned other's experience or their imposition on how other's might enjoy their experience. If you choose to be "that guy" there is little consequence for the behavior. Be aware though, that guy may find community support lacking when he is in need.

Unfortunately, this tenor of this thread is beginning to lend support to Godwin's Law. Perhaps it time to take a deep breath lest the bots should come and send someone off on a "vacation."

Ha! How noble! Were behavioral norms and standards solicited within the thread or were they simply imposed from on-high based on some perceived need? Sure, many things arise in a discussion. I had a sense that the instruction and suggestions regarding anchoring behavior and practices weren't exactly appreciated ...

Kings Gambit · Dec 7, 2022

I can recall only once, albeit there may be more, in 35 yr of boating that I complained directly to a fellow boater about his portable (outside) generator. Lying next to him on a mooring in Cat Harbor he fired up the generator to make hot water for a shower and then left the boat for more than an hour while it ran

. I was totally bewildered. When I "asked" about it he said he had forgotten that it was left on. OK. I "confront" for lack of a better word, much more often boaters trying to anchor too close to me. Just a different version of the same issue, however--unwanted "intrusion" beyond the limit of politely "sharing" the resource for the enjoyment of all. It's preferable IMHO to pre-advise in a place like this than to do it out on the water.

Scott T-Bird · Dec 7, 2022

Fair enough! Awareness should always be welcome.

Ralph Johnstone · Dec 7, 2022

Scott T-Bird said:
I don't think I'm in left field. I'm just not in the habit of telling another sailor how to behave at anchorage simply because they have a portable generator on board.

Most powerboaters and some sailboaters are too Goddammed stupid to have any concept of what normal behavior is in an anchorage. I always encourage normal boaters to call out these idiots and tell them what inconsiderate slobs they are. If you don't say anything, they get the idea that we accept their slobbish behavior.

Actually, I'm pleased that in one of the larger anchorages here, fro anyone getting the idea it's acceptable to run their generator all night long, it's not too long before their boat is illuminated by other's spot lights. I like to go over and cuss them out. It does work after a while.

Mind you, I go after them because guns are illegal here in Canada and being caught with one in the wrong place is always good for prison time.

dLj · Dec 7, 2022

artleyt115 said:
Hello there!

I've recently got into my 26 O'day and have been dreaming of all the creature comforts I can fixate to our weekend/week cruiser but I am having some trouble selecting batteries :/
I've seen alot of older post about AGM, GEL and other types but I am wondering what I should consider with the advancements in batteries. plus with my energy budget, I currently plan to have; a lowrange 7" fishfinder, a 12v dual zone chest cooler (gotta keep the cold snacks cold), boat radio with 4 speakers, 5 12v outlets around the boat, 4 led head lamps, the marking outside lights, a led strip in the cabin (thats zone controled from a project I did a while ago), a 2000w inverter (got for free and is made for marine applications from colman) to power a 27 inch monitor with a dvd player (I know overkill for those, both of them combined at their peak wont take more than 700w but the inverter was gift). I do plan to add a solar pannel to the grid, I would like some of your recommendations for battery type and quantity. I do have a starter battery for my outboard already that works well.

Thank you in advance

@artleyt115 That's quite a list of "goodies" to be running through a 12V electric system on a 26 foot boat. You did get the question of starting with your energy needs, but you also need to decide your budget and your time frames away from shore power.

With you current list of electronic "goodies", and on a 26 foot boat I'd say do not use lead acid - you should go to lithium batteries. You don't have a lot of room on your boat. Even if you are just running out on weekends, you are going to be fighting sulfation with any of the lead acid based batteries and I think you will spend a lot more money in batteries in 10 years than just going with lithium batteries up front.

That's my 2 cents worth.

dj

Johann · Dec 7, 2022

I'm going to agree with @dLj that Lithium might be a good fit for your use. Problems with LiFePO4 (LFP) generally arise from alternator issues, extended time on shore power with an old charger, incompatible solar or wind controllers, or surge loads that exceed the BMS limits. You don't seem to have any of those issues. Since you are charging primarily with a portable generator while on the boat, an LFP battery will be more efficient (cheaper on fuel) than Lead Acid if the charger is sized properly for the generator. What type of onboard charger do you have for the generator to power?

berner73 · Dec 7, 2022

@artly115, please don't take any offense to all the comments volunteered in this thread. You've been provided a wealth of information, albeit only about 20% is related to your initial question! The other 80% is also invaluable, but sometimes it's hard to realize why for some time.

You've conducted yourself just fine. This is the nature of public forums, you don't always get to direct where the conversation goes - but that doesn't mean there isn't value in the discussion. While it may not seem so at times, everyone on the water has much more in common than that which separates us.

Best of luck with your project and please post your results and experiences so other's may learn from them moving forward.

House battery recommendations

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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