I am trying to use a Honda EU3000i Handi Generator to power my Marine Air Systems, Vector Compact, 2001 Model VCP16K, 16K BTU A/C. I've installed a Dometic SmartStart Switch but the main circuit breaker on my AC Panel blows and I get a reversed polarityindicator light when I connect the generator output to the boat using my standard 30amp land line power cable. Any thoughts and/or suggestions ?
Honda EU3000i Handi
- Thread starter SeaLuff
- Start date
The generator has a common/neutral bond. When connected to the boat, your polarity light indicates that. generally not a problem.
The only reason (I can think of) for tripping your main breaker must be somewhere in the boat between neutral and the hot side causing a short.
The only reason (I can think of) for tripping your main breaker must be somewhere in the boat between neutral and the hot side causing a short.
These generators are not wired for marine standards, never have been. They have a floating ground and it seems like you may have an ELCI main breaker which is looking for a Neutral/Ground tie at the "source"...
It is recommended to use a properly wired marine genset that is wired for a marine installation to keep things safe.. The Honda EU generators, and many other floating ground portable generators, are not properly configured/wired for marine use. They use a floating neutral or floating ground which only means neutral & ground are not bonded "at the source of power" which is now the generator.
Many chargers, inverters and ELCI breakers (new vessels are required to use ELCI main breakers) will not work properly with a floating neutral/ground generator.
Honda does not recommend connecting ground and neutral inside the generator, or to use an RGP / Rube Goldberg Plug which bonds neutral to ground. When I last spoke with Honda engineering they said bonding neutral to ground at the generator will void the warranty. Folks using these on-board are doing so at their own risk, in a number of ways. You can always try wiring an RGP plug but Honda says not to.....
Do you have an ELCI main breaker??
Don is on the money. Do not concern yourself with the polarity light. We used a Honda 3000 on the 2001 h320 for a couple of seasons until we got tired of hauling that beast and opted for the smaller and much lighter Honda 2000. The unit worked perfectly on the boat which seems to be a similar year model. The fact that you may not have a problem with shorepower tends to indicate there are probably no wiring shorts but there might be a piece of equipment like the battery charger that is not compatible. Just conduct a test by shutting off all the breaker switches in the boat and connecting the generator output. If the main breaker is not tripped then it is matter of identifying what is causing the problem. You may start flipping on the breaker switches one by one until it trips and the last one will point to the problem. On the other hand if the main trips immediately even with the absence of a load then the problem is with the main breaker. If it were me I would replace the main breaker with one that worked. I think the ELCI requirements went into effect in 2013 so a 2001 boat model would not have it unless retrofitted. Honda's attorneys will not allow the company to advertise their generators for marine use but the truth is that they are used successfully every day by sailors in all kinds of boats. What the ELCI does is to protect boaters and swimmers against stray electricity. If an ELSI breaker shows no problems with shorepower the boat should not have any problems with stray electricity.
Warning, the following is from a home generator professional and newby sail boat owner, it may be the worst advice you never paid for......
The neutrals and grounds should be bonded in the first panel and no where else. When you are on shore power, they are bonded somewhere. If you bond them any where on the boat, you will probably fix your generator problem, but in the process create another when on shore power. It is called a ground loop. When there are two points of grounding, you create the potential of making one path to ground "hot". The bigger and more likely problem is if your boat grounds are bonded to the neutral, and several feet or several hundred feet up the electrical system they are bonded again, is potential. Lightning strikes enter the ground like a pebble thrown in water... the surges take time to travel through the ground. If you are bonded twice, there may be several thousand volts of potential difference between your ground and the dock ground. Even though it would only be milliseconds, anything electrical on your boat could be fried.
When we install a generator on a building, we used to be forced by the code to install an equipment ground at the generator. Now were told not to by the manufacturer. It has made for some interesting discussions with the building inspector.
MikeHolt.com has a lot of info, most of it is WAY over my head. He also has several you tube vids that are informative.
The neutrals and grounds should be bonded in the first panel and no where else. When you are on shore power, they are bonded somewhere. If you bond them any where on the boat, you will probably fix your generator problem, but in the process create another when on shore power. It is called a ground loop. When there are two points of grounding, you create the potential of making one path to ground "hot". The bigger and more likely problem is if your boat grounds are bonded to the neutral, and several feet or several hundred feet up the electrical system they are bonded again, is potential. Lightning strikes enter the ground like a pebble thrown in water... the surges take time to travel through the ground. If you are bonded twice, there may be several thousand volts of potential difference between your ground and the dock ground. Even though it would only be milliseconds, anything electrical on your boat could be fried.
When we install a generator on a building, we used to be forced by the code to install an equipment ground at the generator. Now were told not to by the manufacturer. It has made for some interesting discussions with the building inspector.
MikeHolt.com has a lot of info, most of it is WAY over my head. He also has several you tube vids that are informative.
When I use my portable generator for appliances, I plug the appliance directly into the generator, by-passing altogether the boat's AC circuity. For example, if my wife needs to use her AC hair dryer on "high heat", the dryer gets plugged into the generator directly--not into an AC receptacle on the boat. [Otherwise, she uses a low power/heat DC dryer.] Perhaps air conditioning can work the same way--plug directly into the generator?
I also do not plug the generator into boat's AC system for charging the batteries. If I want to charge batteries at anchor I use an 80W solar panel supplemented with diesel charging if needed.
I also do not plug the generator into boat's AC system for charging the batteries. If I want to charge batteries at anchor I use an 80W solar panel supplemented with diesel charging if needed.
On boats the ONLY place neutral (white) and (green) grounding wire are ever bonded are:
*On shore
*At an inverter but ONLY while inverting (new source of power)
*At a genset but ONLY while generating (new source of power)
An on-board isolation transformer (new source of power)
The Honda's are simply not wired for marine standards and this is where the problems lie. Some "smart breakers" and ELCI's can trip when no grounding to neutral bond is seen.
My point here is to never bond neutral to earth on board your boat unless it occurs at a new source of power WHILE that device is actively powering. You would be far better with an RGP than to bond neutral and ground on board...
Benny,
This is not just an issue on boats, it is a land & constructions site issue as well. OSHA and the NEC have issues with the way these inverter generators are not bonded. Feeding a home panel where the bond is there is one thing but on a boat this bond is lacking.
On land we also still have millions and millions of homes without GFCI's in the proper locations (despite this having been code for years) and that won't change anytime soon either. On boats we already had an existing safety standard, that most builders have adhered to since the 70's, and that is the AC grounding (green) to ship ground bond. The ELCI just ups the game and makes it even safer.
Standards evolve for the safety of all but we can't fix folks who don't want to comply with accepted safety standards for what ever reason... As I said an RGP plug will make the Honda work but Honda does not like this.. Still it is far safer than wiring neutral to ground on board your boat..
As for the switch one can press to ignore the lack of a ground / neutral bond? Are you serious??? That problem lies smack dab with Honda, Yamaha and others, not a device that is compliant and built and intended to save lives. That is like offering a switch to disable the brakes on your car or a switch on a GFCI to ignore/disable safety tripping.
Thanks for the clarification, That is basically what I said, except you said it in english.....
Does having a galvanic isolator play into this Honda generator plugged into the shore power connection? I've never used a Honda but have used a piece of crap 800W harbor Freight unit and it didn't light the reverse polarity light.
BTW - I don't think this has anything to do with the OPs breaker tripping problem
BTW - I don't think this has anything to do with the OPs breaker tripping problem
Maine I'm not talking about disabling the breaker as that would be a fire hazard; I'm just talking about modifying the section that controls the ELCI function to give the boater the ability to switch it Off. It can be made to default back to On automatically once power is disconnected. This would allow the temporary use of popular portable generators and other un-bonded appliances . It would obviously leave it up to the boater to consider the circumstances when to use it or not. This seems to be the part that concerns the promoters of these changes as it seems they don't trust anyone to be informed and act responsibly. I think in fact that what is bound to happen is that some are going to replace their main breakers with non-ELCI units as an owner modification. ABYC is not a Government Agency and its Standards to not carry force of law. As of today the USCG is not requiring the use of ELCI breakers. If there is a way for us to take a step towards greater safety without sacrificing sensible options then I think the public will accept those enhancements but if you tell me that only solution is for me to install a costly marine generator I don't have to abide by that. I frequently ask my diver if he has felt the effects of electrical leaks from our boat and he confirms not as evidenced by the long life of the shafts sacrificial anode.
I noticed that Honda [and their retailers] are now advertising these units as Inverter Generators. I heard/read somewhere back that legally, they cannot be sold as "generators." What are they, actually--is there a important distinction? [I know what an inverter typically does--DC to AC.] Reminds me of a restaurant in Clearwater, Florida that had a seafood dish on the menu called "Tuna-Amberjack"?? Turned out to be amberjack. I suppose there's not all that much difference as far as the tourists care, except that tuna can fetch a higher price.
IMHO a portable gas powered generator on a boat is far from "sensible" despite their wide spread use. Using the terms safe and sensible in when referring to portable generators on boats gives me a chuckle..
I own an EU2000 and it will never set foot on my boat.. Something about Darwin awards...
They are unsafe on many fronts, not just from the electrical compliance side. Personally I do not buy into the poor boater argument for safety issues: A) You can afford a boat B) you can afford to slip it, maintain it C) you can afford to have air conditioning installed
But now you can't then afford to use acceptable safe wiring practices? If you can't afford them on your current boat perhaps buy a smaller one that costs less to maintain and that you can maintain safely.. An RGP for a Honda would run you all of $1.09 to make...
In my experience boaters generally choose what to spend money on and the decisions are rarely based on being safe.. I had one owner who knew he needed new standing rigging (3K) he opted for a paint job (10.5k) instead. He then argued he could not afford new standing rigging. No, he made a choice to make his boat look better, not for it to be safer. Lucky for him it was a lower shroud that failed and he did not lose the rig....
Those same arguments, I can't afford it, are what forced states to have automotive inspection programs to help keep our roads safe. People choose safety, or they gamble and don't...
While the ABYC is absolutely standards organization much of what the ABYC has done in terms of safety is directly incorporated and has been adopted by and into the CFR or Code of Federal Regulations. It's work expands regularly into the CFR. I would not be surprised some day to see ELCI's mandatory just like USCG/ABYC A-16 navigation lights are for new boats.
The real crux is that insurance companies and their surveyors follow the current acceptable safety standards whether we like it or not. I realize most don't like this, so I suggest taking it up with your insurer. BTDT.....
Regardless of whether something is safe, economical or the law the insurance company is usually the final word if you want to retain coverage. No the ABYC and USCG will not come banging on your door but the insurance company may just drop you if you don't bring your survey findings in line. If you've not had an insurance survey in a while, DON'T CHANGE INSURERS!!!
In the last few years, from insurance surveys alone, I have had to:
*Bond a keel stepped mast to external ballast (after a strike claim & this is NOT a standard)
*Bond numerous boats for AC Grounding to DC Grounding
*Add over current protection where it did not exist (house banks for example)
*2 Boats for the 10' rule (AC shore power inlet rule)
*1 Boat for an improper AC main breaker (not double pole)
*Multiple boats for GFCI outlets
*Multiple boats for lack of DC over-current protection
*Multiple boats for LPG system issues (too many to list)
*1 Boat for AC/DC isolation (cover for AC) behind AC/DC panel
*Multiple boats for fuel system issues (too many to list)
*1 Boat for lack of a reverse polarity indicator
*Approx three boats for non compliant battery chargers
*2 Boats for ignition protection issues on gas boats.
*1 Boat for lack of a bilge blower
*Improper bonding of chargers and inverter/chargers
*2 Boats for a bilge pump alarm
*Multiple boats for deteriorated below waterline hoses (one just last week)
*Remove a non compliant on-demand water heater (Excel)
*Multiple battery system compliance issues including venting, acid containment, over current protection etc..
*Multiple unsafe termination issues (solder, wire nuts, tape etc.)
*Steering system failures (meat hooks etc.)
I had one boat, a Pearson 30, condemned by water intrusion into the decks and around the chain plates. The fix to the boat was more than the boat was worth. No one would insure it. Boat is now a derelict. If you think the ABYC safety standards don't have any weight on boats this would be wishful thinking.. I get fix this stuff regularly including items that are not even required under the standards...
There are many more that I am just forgetting... Insurance companies and surveyors today are playing a CYA game. In today's day and age it does pay to use the available safety standards as a solid guideline for boat upgrades. The survey industry uses them so the closer your boat is to those guidelines (ABYC) the better chance you will have at skating through clean on an insurance survey. It is getting tougher and tougher to find a "lick & stick" surveyor these days due to the litigious nature of our society.
NOTE: "Lick & stick" is a term for those of us in states that require State inspection stickers on cars. Anyone who's ever owned an old car knows what a "lick & stick" garage is..... A few extra dollars and the problems just go away and he licks the sticker and slaps it on... (wink)
Again if you want your a Honda to work with certain breakers and equipment then a Rube Goldberg Plug is the best $1.09 solution you will find..
Kings Gambit.. The inverter generators generate a three phase variable frequency and voltage main output which is fed into the inverter module where it is rectified to DC then inverted back back into 120V 60 hz AC by a computer controlled module. Since the 60 hz is made by the computer, the engine does not have to run at a fixed speed like a regular generator. The computer can vary the engine speed to match the load on the inverter, which makes these generally quieter, and more fuel efficient. A regular generator directly makes 120V 60hz by running at a governed fixed speed of either 3600 rpm or 1800 rpm; there are no intermediate voltages or frequencies.
Kloudie: I have learned something again today! I have never studied up on the concept used for engine to inverter method for the modern generator units and you educated me on the concept.
Got 24 cod and bass over at Bodega Bay Ca. area. Just got home and going back final time 2 weeks later this month.
Thanks, Chief
Got 24 cod and bass over at Bodega Bay Ca. area. Just got home and going back final time 2 weeks later this month.
Thanks, Chief
kloudie1, thanks for your clear explanation! That makes me wonder if the 2-stroke (800 W) portable gas generators sold by Harbor Freight are actual generators, or if they operate as does the Honda (I + G). I don't think anyone would call them "quiet." Someone mentioned those above.
That little ($89 on sale) 800W two stroke is a straight generator. it is governed to 3600 rpm to produce about 60 hz. Those aren't as bad as it seems they might be. lots of "how-to" on youtube for a couple of small changes to make em work pretty well. LOUD .. yes.. not as bad as a weedeater but close
EDIT: It can push a good 40 ampere battery charger and would be fine if you were stuck somewhere with dead batteries.. Loud and a two stroke requiring oil/gasoline mix..
EDIT: It can push a good 40 ampere battery charger and would be fine if you were stuck somewhere with dead batteries.. Loud and a two stroke requiring oil/gasoline mix..
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