High Thrust Prop

Mikem

.
Dec 20, 2009
823
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Our 1981 Catalina 25 (swing keel standard rig) is powered by a 1991 9.9 two stroke Mariner with a three blade prop that runs like a Swiss watch. It pushes the boat at 6kts which is terrific. However, when towing the newly acquired 90lb inflatable the speed drops almost a knot. Would the addition of a four blade high thrust prop get any of that speed back?

Thanks
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I think no... now that you are towing the dinghy, you must remember it has a lower hull speed than the mothership, and yet you are trying to make it go faster thru the water.... you may gain a very slight measurable amount of speed back by re-propping, but it will come at a much more measurable cost of fuel.
if it were a light rigid hull dinghy, it might bounce up on plane, but not the inflatable....
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,542
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
If its more hp in forward that you want, you may need to go to a lower pitch prop. HP is RPM * torque and if the prop you have wont get up to the rated peak RPM, you also wont get up to the rated peak HP.

But.. after you put that lower pitch prop on, you will have to run the outboard at a higher rpm to go the same speed - and along with the higher rpm you get more noise, more vibration and use more gas. I tried a "high thrust" prop and because of all the stuff mentioned above, disliked it so got rid of it. High thrust props generally do have a much improved reverse (mostly because of how they handle the exhaust) but that may not be the problem you are trying to solve.

I have not towed a dingy much but it seem to me that if you are dropping a whole knot that you may be getting too much drag from the dingy. Maybe also look at ways to improve how it tows such as where it rides on your wake or maybe pulling up on the front of the dingy more..
 

Mikem

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Dec 20, 2009
823
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Great feedback. I will try altering the tow position and see what happens. Thanks.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
So you are a sailor and your primary concern is getting anothe knot out of you motor?????
What is the rush? throttle back, have the first mate get you a cool drink and RELAX. If you really have to "go fast" put the sails up, that should help the speed (and boat stability too)
Sailtime is measured in, at the very finest resolution, 15 minute intervals (half a bell) so a 6 to 5 knot speed loss would be 6000 less feet per hour. at 5 knots (30k ft/hour) it would take you 1/20 of an hour or 3 minutes more to cover the distance lost at 6 knots. Pretty sure your life is not that well organized that you are going to miss 3 minutes in an hour.
 

Johann

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Jun 3, 2004
526
Leopard 39 Pensacola
So you are a sailor and your primary concern is getting anothe knot out of you motor?????
What is the rush? throttle back, have the first mate get you a cool drink and RELAX. If you really have to "go fast" put the sails up, that should help the speed (and boat stability too)
Sailtime is measured in, at the very finest resolution, 15 minute intervals (half a bell) so a 6 to 5 knot speed loss would be 6000 less feet per hour. at 5 knots (30k ft/hour) it would take you 1/20 of an hour or 3 minutes more to cover the distance lost at 6 knots. Pretty sure your life is not that well organized that you are going to miss 3 minutes in an hour.
I think you lost something in all those numbers, but the difference between 5 and 6 knots is 12 min/hr. 18NM trip at 6 knots is 3 hrs. At 5 knots 3 hrs 36 mins. That could be significant depending on your schedule...
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
although the numbers are in error, they may not be the point that is being made... if one has that tight of schedule, they either need to ship the dinghy and gain the lost knot back, or think about switching to a planing hull, so as to save a LOT of time and make the deadline:biggrin:
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,229
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I think no... now that you are towing the dinghy, you must remember it has a lower hull speed than the mothership, and yet you are trying to make it go faster thru the water.... you may gain a very slight measurable amount of speed back by re-propping, but it will come at a much more measurable cost of fuel.
if it were a light rigid hull dinghy, it might bounce up on plane, but not the inflatable....
An inflatable dinghy is not a displacement hull vessel..... if that were the case you wouldn't be able to get it up on plane with a properly matched outboard. That's just not the way theoretical hull speed works..... Besides.. if you set your tow distance properly... so the dinghy rides the front of the stern wave... the resistance will be reduced tremendously. There's a big difference between towing and dragging....

I favor the high thrust prop. It will actually improve fuel efficiency... because the motor will not labor when allowed to run at higher rpm of your maximum power range. A high thrust prop is one whose pitch is smaller....not larger. I works in the same way as a lower gear. For heavy slow moving sailboats with a limited max speed... the lower rpm range of a normally propped outboard is all that's needed to get the boat up to cruising speed. The problem ... especially with two strokes... or any small engine for that matter.. is that the most efficient power range is in the higher rpm level... 3/4 throttle at least. For diesel engines with lots of low end torque this is not an issue... but for lightweight gasoline motors the torque at low rpms is much diminished and therefore has a drastic effect when the payload is increased or the boat experiences extra resistance from adverse headwinds and waves.
Remember that most small outboards are designed to push flat bottom fishing boats or inflatable dinghies at planing speeds....
By switching to a high thrust prop... the boat will still reach its maximum speed.... admittedly at a higher rpm.... but torque at the lower end will be improved give the motor the power it needs with the increased load and resistance.
 
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Mikem

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Dec 20, 2009
823
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Thanks, Joe. I need to experiment with the tow distance. And thanks for the clarification on the inflatable, it is a planning hull not a displacement hull. It planes easily with a 5hp on it and achieves about 13 kts so it is much faster than my C-25 with a theoretical hull speed of 6.3 kts. Square root of LWL x 1.34 Froude's number and all that. And in Puget Sound with its currents any speed I can gain back is important.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,542
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
It will actually improve fuel efficiency... because the motor will not labor when allowed to run at higher rpm of your maximum power range.
I really didnt understand this so hopefully you have some data or a link to a web site with some measured data. When you say "labor", what does that mean?

Take a case where we are trying to get the get the same exact HP at two different rpm. This can be done by a change of pitch in the prop - or by using a different gear in an auto. If we have an auto and hold the speed, a constant HP is needed to do this. But you can use different gears to achieve this constant HP. It seems to me that you are saying in a auto that I would be getting better gas millage on a highway by shifting to a lower gear so that the engine doesnt "labor". You may be able to find a very specific but small rpm range where this is true but in general I dont think any of the autos I have ever owned generally worked that way.In both the auto and the outboard, we are not "bogging" things down by excessive low rpm which would be an entirely different case. Its like taking an auto trip at a constant speed in 5th gear and then doing the exact same trip in 3rd or 4th gear.

This topic was originally talking about getting more power out of the outboard and not about efficiency and if you are trying to get more HP, you do need to go to something like a high thrust prop because it will allow the outboard to get to its rated HP RPM. A higher pitch prop may not be able to get up to its rated RPM because the sailboat speed is limited. But if you get more HP out of the motor, you will use more gas.
 
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Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
dinkmount.JPG
We did this with some heated and bent PVC electrical conduit with some cheap floating line inside. it's attached to handles under the dinghy. Really low drag and not in the way when we go into a slip. Cost is cheap.
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,542
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
There is one additional reason that the OP's prop is probably fine. A four stroke and a two stroke may have the same peak HP at a peak RPM. But the two stroke in general will produce higher torque at lower RPM compared to the four stroke. Power (or HP) is simply torque times rpm. So the two stroke operated at lower RPM because of an over pitched prop can produce higher HP than the four stroke can. Two strokes would be slightly less sensitive to matching the prop pitch for peak RPM to achieve peak HP. The OP's outboard is a two stroke. The small two stroke will use a lot more gas to produce that higher HP but again, efficiency wasn't the problem the OP was trying to solve.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
An inflatable dinghy is not a displacement hull vessel..... if that were the case you wouldn't be able to get it up on plane with a properly matched outboard. That's just not the way theoretical hull speed works..... Besides.. if you set your tow distance properly... so the dinghy rides the front of the stern wave... the resistance will be reduced tremendously. There's a big difference between towing and dragging....speeds....
By switching to a high thrust prop... the boat will still reach its maximum speed.... admittedly at a higher rpm...
Edited to clarify.
Joe, to some extent I will agree with you, but there is going to be a trade off that will actually cost more energy than it produces.
its for the OP to decide if what little gain is worth the end cost. my calculated guess from experience would be about a quarter knot gain for the cost of the prop and a decent rise in the hourly fuel consumption..
assuming he is running at his maximum rpm, changing the prop is either going to cause the engine to labor more as it pulls a higher pitch, or go slower thru the water with less laboring...
Walt gives a good explanation using an automobile in place oo the boat, where the gearing can be changed with the movement of a lever, rather than the swapping of components.
its kind of the same thing, just a different vehicle... the only thing lost in the equation between the two is what we would call "prop slip"....

if he was over or under propped towing the small dinghy, it means that he is also over or under propped when he isnt towing it.
and I will agree that changing out a severely mis-propped boat, can greatly improve the efficiency, but with the numbers he is showing, this isnt the case.

my entire life has been spent working and/or playing with boats.... mostly smaller ones.
some have been very high powered speed/racing boats and others just row boats, with or without homemade propulsion.
and even though there are a countless number of smarter people than me on any given subject, and some can spew forth calculations that would make most of us wonder, and some who can articulate their thoughts much better than I can mine, I will still argue what I DO know:biggrin:... (but always in a friendly, if outspoken manner)
and I do know that no matter how big or small the object is that is moving thru the water, there is a speed at which it will move with very little measurable effort, but when it needs to move faster, the effort needed becomes greater.
it makes no difference if it is submerged or floating on top of the water, or what shape it is, or how its powered. it may be called a light or heavy displacement, semi-displacement, planing or something in between. but it will still take more power to move it faster thru or over the water, if it is in contact with the water.... (and when there is too much power supplied, the object will either come apart or leave the surface of the water)
as for the OP's problem, at the top of his rpm range where the production of more torque/ horsepower/speed is least efficient, he is already squeezing the very most out of what horsepower has to work with. by adding some more drag to his boat, its taking away the speed that is already barely being produced... its not an unreasonable fact.
by re-propping, he may gain a slight bit of the speed lost back again, but it is going to come at a much higher cost in fuel.

you can change the prop or the gearing below, but you can not change the output horsepower of the engine itself.

Nothing is free, but I will agree there can be trade offs...
 
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Mikem

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Dec 20, 2009
823
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Thanks to all for their inputs. I think I will try adjusting the tow length prior to a prop swap. Gives me another chance to "just mess around with boats". Cheers, Mike
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,229
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Edited to clarify.
Joe, to some extent I will agree with you, but there is going to be a trade off that will actually cost more energy than it produces....................... etc.
...
Centerline.... I appreciate the time you've taken to explain your experience. I'll just make this clarification for you. The "theoretical hull speed" formula is strictly for determining the most efficient power match for a full displacement hull vessel. Any other use will simply confuse and confound the purpose for which the formula was devised.
There are a number of possible solutions to Mikem's towing issue... but the problem is definitely not caused by the theoretical hull speed of an inflatable dinghy, even if there were such a thing.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
There are a number of possible solutions to Mikem's towing issue... but the problem is definitely not caused by the theoretical hull speed of an inflatable dinghy, even if there were such a thing.
you are correct.... theoretical hull speed is exactly that, just a theory.... but it is a close enough model that we can use it in an attempt to have a reasonable starting point to work/plan/discuss from.
Any and every shape of object, (and to a lesser degree weight), that is floating in the water will have its own characteristics that may or may not fit the theory.
and every object floating in or on the water will have an increasing drag effect, the faster that the towing line attached to it is pulled.. until the object hits its planing speed, if possible, which then, the characteristics change again.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,542
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
whats is take to make a 90 pound dingy pulled efficiently (no one in the boat) go 6 knts.. maybe 1/2 hp? This is a guess but it doesn't take a lot of power. I dont think its about theoretical hull speed of the dingy either, its about the dingy behaving more like a sea anchor with how its being towed.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
if its an inflatable, unladen with a soft floor, which is what we are assuming from the description, it would take a minimum of 2.5 hp.
1/2 hp would propel it to about 3 to 3.5kts.

the drag increases exponentially with a moderate increase in speed of the object.
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,542
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
If you dont mind my asking, how did you come up with those numbers?
(no one is in the dingy, its 90 pounds total)