Ed,
Your West Marine combiner is most likely a Yandina. They are excellent combiners and very reliable. Yandina has excellent information and descriptions of operation on their site too.
Yandina.com (LINK)
help changing battery bank.
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Your West Marine combiner is most likely a Yandina. They are excellent combiners and very reliable. Yandina has excellent information and descriptions of operation on their site too.
Yandina.com (LINK)
Thanks for the link Maine. I never did have any literature for the thing. It was on the boat when I bought her in 1998. It has always worked, even with me moving the wires and changing the battery configuration. Amazing! 
How about not wiring in the starter battery
I had one wired in on my previous boat and like most people I never needed it. With my present setup the starter battery is stored under the settee next to the nav station. It waits there for the call that will (LIKELY) never come.
I charge it every few months when I am connected to shore power with a portable charger and it is always ready to go. All of my other batteries are combined into one large house battery just by keeping the switch in the "both" position.
If I ever need to use it, I have space next to the battery box where it can be moved into position and connected to "B" position. One would also have to disconnect the dead house bank by switching from "BOTH" to "B".
This "advice" comes with a qestion mark at the end. I am not a qualified electrician but there are many of them here in this forum. What about it guys...is there any thing wrong with this extremely simple wiring plan?
I had one wired in on my previous boat and like most people I never needed it. With my present setup the starter battery is stored under the settee next to the nav station. It waits there for the call that will (LIKELY) never come.
I charge it every few months when I am connected to shore power with a portable charger and it is always ready to go. All of my other batteries are combined into one large house battery just by keeping the switch in the "both" position.
If I ever need to use it, I have space next to the battery box where it can be moved into position and connected to "B" position. One would also have to disconnect the dead house bank by switching from "BOTH" to "B".
This "advice" comes with a qestion mark at the end. I am not a qualified electrician but there are many of them here in this forum. What about it guys...is there any thing wrong with this extremely simple wiring plan?
Sure, why not. Only issue is that WHEN you need it, you'll have to jury rig it in. It IS a plausible alternate. The real downside is that my experience has been that while many can estimate how much juice has been removed from the house bank by doing the amp hour calculation in their heads, most folks have little or no clue about how much has been returned to the bank because they don't understand battery acceptance. Unless they have a battery monitor that also has the Gotcha factor removed, they are woefully undercharging their batteries.
I am a proponent of keeping it simple: big house bank, wired in reserve bank, ready to go. Some like to start on their reserve bank to avoid spikes to their electronics.
Bob, except for the location of the reserve bank, you already have everything you need. Why not just combine your existing batteries, wire the extra one to the the "2" post and never use B?
Your boat, your choice.
I am a proponent of keeping it simple: big house bank, wired in reserve bank, ready to go. Some like to start on their reserve bank to avoid spikes to their electronics.
Bob, except for the location of the reserve bank, you already have everything you need. Why not just combine your existing batteries, wire the extra one to the the "2" post and never use B?
Your boat, your choice.
FYI
Self-DischargeThe self-discharge rate is a measure of how much batteries discharge on their own. The Self-Discharge rate is governed by the construction of the battery and the metallurgy of the lead used inside.
For instance, flooded cells typically use lead alloyed with Antimony to increase their mechanical strength. However, the Antimony also increases the self-discharge rate to 8-40% per month. This is why flooded lead-acid batteries should be in use often or left on a trickle-charger.
The lead found in Gel and AGM batteries does not require a lot of mechanical strength since it is immobilized by the gel or fiberglass. Thus, it is typically alloyed with Calcium to reduce Gassing and Self-Discharge. The self-discharge of Gel and AGM batteries is only 2-10% per month and thus these batteries need less maintenance to keep them happy.
Leaving a battery just laying around will discharge on its own. If the charge is not maintained it will shorten it's life and the plates will sulfate.
Self-DischargeThe self-discharge rate is a measure of how much batteries discharge on their own. The Self-Discharge rate is governed by the construction of the battery and the metallurgy of the lead used inside.
For instance, flooded cells typically use lead alloyed with Antimony to increase their mechanical strength. However, the Antimony also increases the self-discharge rate to 8-40% per month. This is why flooded lead-acid batteries should be in use often or left on a trickle-charger.
The lead found in Gel and AGM batteries does not require a lot of mechanical strength since it is immobilized by the gel or fiberglass. Thus, it is typically alloyed with Calcium to reduce Gassing and Self-Discharge. The self-discharge of Gel and AGM batteries is only 2-10% per month and thus these batteries need less maintenance to keep them happy.
Leaving a battery just laying around will discharge on its own. If the charge is not maintained it will shorten it's life and the plates will sulfate.
It should also be added that leaving any battery on a trickle charge will also shorten it's life.
The very best thing to do is to fully charge the bank and then disconnect it. Yes, they will self discharge, but trickle charging constantly is just as bad.
Also, using the banks regularly means you are using your boat regularly, too.
Heck, who can argue with that?
Left out some info
The starter is an Optima AGM which holds a charge for a long time. I have (3) 4-D batteries with one of them forward to shorten the run to anchor windlass. If I ever need the starter battery, the plan is to place it next to the one 4-D forward and just move the wires over to the Optima.
I also have an electric dinghy with (2) Optima batteries that requires frequent charging so cycling in the unused starter battery once in a while is not much of a hassle.
Convenience is only an issue if one ever needs to use the battery. I think of this more like the parachute that I always wore when I used to fly hang-gliders. Almost certainly never need it but wouldn't leave home without it. Like a battery, some maintenance required.
The starter jury rig would get me home and if I was out on a trip and something went wrong to fry all 3 of my 4-Ds, I could wire my two dinghy batterys (deep cycle Optimas) to A and my starter to B and life could continue with all systems working except we could no longer afford to watch TV.
If I ever find that I actually need to use the starter battery I may wire in a more convenient system. Have any of you had to use your emergency start battery?
The starter is an Optima AGM which holds a charge for a long time. I have (3) 4-D batteries with one of them forward to shorten the run to anchor windlass. If I ever need the starter battery, the plan is to place it next to the one 4-D forward and just move the wires over to the Optima.
I also have an electric dinghy with (2) Optima batteries that requires frequent charging so cycling in the unused starter battery once in a while is not much of a hassle.
Convenience is only an issue if one ever needs to use the battery. I think of this more like the parachute that I always wore when I used to fly hang-gliders. Almost certainly never need it but wouldn't leave home without it. Like a battery, some maintenance required.
The starter jury rig would get me home and if I was out on a trip and something went wrong to fry all 3 of my 4-Ds, I could wire my two dinghy batterys (deep cycle Optimas) to A and my starter to B and life could continue with all systems working except we could no longer afford to watch TV.
If I ever find that I actually need to use the starter battery I may wire in a more convenient system. Have any of you had to use your emergency start battery?
I assume the 3, 4Ds, are wired in parallel? If they all get zapped and/or go dead, and you just replace one with the spare, I'm thinking the bad ones will zap the new one also? I thijnk it better(as in Stu's #24) to wire it to the switch and keep the live one(s) separated from the dead ones.
You are correct on both points. The 3 house bats are all in parallel (as long as the switch is in the "Both' position) and if some problem kills all bats I will need to get them all offline by swithing to "B" position and replacing the one bat forward with the Optima. If I failed to do this, I would drain the little Optima into those three big buckets so fast that I would not have a chance to start the engine.
So the plan to get home is to forget about the house bank and just motor home on my one little starter battery. If I wanted to stay out longer or sail part of the way using some electricity while the engine is off, then I would also need to connect my two Optima deep cycles to the "A" position and I would be able to run insturments with the engine off. If I was down to my starting battery only I would leave the engine running all the way back to a place where I could replace the batteries.
The convenience of reconnecting wires vs throwing the switch to engage the starting battery has to be weighed against the hassle of installing the battery and wiring it in if you never expect to use it.
I do not know anyone who has not been able to start their boat due to a battery problem except in the case of boats that have been sitting on their mooring or in the slip ignored while the battery drains slowly away. If that is the case then the boat is safe at home while you run down to the store to buy a new battery. I'm looking for protection against draining the battery at anchor which would force me to weigh anchor manually (big hassle on my boat) and then I would have to sail all the way to a safe port without the engine as backup. That's not a good idea where I live.
One last question which I am repeating...Has anyone out there had the need to use their starting battery because the house bank was too weak?
lost alternator wire (+)
My intentions are to run a single cable to the starter from the starter battery isolating the starter and putting a combiner between the starter and house batt's. I thought I'd run the alternator to the 1-2-b switch and have it charge the house batt's primarily.
suggestions?
after creating a schematic by tracing the wires (cables) it is set up just as expected. the positive batt cables go to the switch. the starter is connected to the switch. However, can't find where the alternator pos wire goes. I trace it to a harness then it disappears into the helm. I assumed it would be simpler and go directly to the batteries. Any ideas where it goes from the alternator?
My intentions are to run a single cable to the starter from the starter battery isolating the starter and putting a combiner between the starter and house batt's. I thought I'd run the alternator to the 1-2-b switch and have it charge the house batt's primarily.
suggestions?
We NEED TO KNOW if you have a voltmeter or an ammeter in your cockpit panel beforre we can answer this question.
As you likely know, by running a cable direct to the starter you will not have the option on using your house bank to boost the starter battery and with the battery hard wired you can not easily disconnect it via a switch. A combiner works very well for charging both battery banks. All you have to do is connect the alternator or A/C charger to one battery bank and the other battery bank will be charged automatically.
Stu, I have a voltmeter in the panel.
Paul, good point. I'll rethink the scheme. I do want to be able to start with all batt's if nec. but I don't want the starting of the motor to pull from the house as it shuts down gauges afer sailing all day.
Paul, good point. I'll rethink the scheme. I do want to be able to start with all batt's if nec. but I don't want the starting of the motor to pull from the house as it shuts down gauges afer sailing all day.
Greg, what you could do is use the 1,2,B switch to "normally" run the starter. And have a second on/off switch to run the house bank's electric load. My battery diagram is not set that way but could easily be changed to service your electric system needs.
so Paul, what you are saying is run pos cable from both banks to 1-2-b switch, then to starter exclusively (nothing else tied to it), thus allowing you to start from 1-2 or b, if regular starter batt's don't work. And leave that switched to "2" (starter batt). then run house bank (bank 1) to on off switch. sounds good. is that your thoughts?
I'm still trying to figure out the mystery of the alternator (+) cable that goes into the cockpit panel.
Also plan to put a combiner between batteries.
I also have a guest ac charger going to both batt banks that i assume could remain as is.
I'm still trying to figure out the mystery of the alternator (+) cable that goes into the cockpit panel.
Also plan to put a combiner between batteries.
I also have a guest ac charger going to both batt banks that i assume could remain as is.
Forget the second switch, unless you have sensitive electronics and need to use a separate battery to start the engine. Try the wiring diagram in Reply #12 here:http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
The discussion of why people (boat building factories) used 1-2-B switches for alternator outputs is discussed in Reply #11 here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
Maine Sail and I discussed basic wiring on page 2 of this C310 Forum topic: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104505&page=2
Keep the 1-2-B switch, wire the alternator output to your house bank, use a switch or an echo charger/combiner/relay to charge your reserve bank.
It could be that the wire you say is going to your cockpit panel is the field wire for the alternator, and not the main power output.
Yes, the existing multiple output battery charger can remain (you "usually" don't run your engine and have shorepower going at thhe same time, right?, so it's OK to keep it that way; you could just as well only connect it to your house bank and let the combiner do its job for both the alternator output and the shorepower charger - your boat, your choice).
Oh, and while you're at it, do a wiring diagram. :naughty:
The discussion of why people (boat building factories) used 1-2-B switches for alternator outputs is discussed in Reply #11 here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
Maine Sail and I discussed basic wiring on page 2 of this C310 Forum topic: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104505&page=2
Keep the 1-2-B switch, wire the alternator output to your house bank, use a switch or an echo charger/combiner/relay to charge your reserve bank.
It could be that the wire you say is going to your cockpit panel is the field wire for the alternator, and not the main power output.
Yes, the existing multiple output battery charger can remain (you "usually" don't run your engine and have shorepower going at thhe same time, right?, so it's OK to keep it that way; you could just as well only connect it to your house bank and let the combiner do its job for both the alternator output and the shorepower charger - your boat, your choice).
Oh, and while you're at it, do a wiring diagram. :naughty:
Thanks stu. I've done a wiring diagram. I'm at the boat for the weekend and will put that on the forum when I get home.
By the way, thanks for putting up with my kindergarten level of electrical knowledge. you blow me away with your knowledge and that's probably why you feel I'm not listening.... it's just over my head. I can build a house but can't wire a boat. I feel you pain...lol.
By the way, thanks for putting up with my kindergarten level of electrical knowledge. you blow me away with your knowledge and that's probably why you feel I'm not listening.... it's just over my head. I can build a house but can't wire a boat. I feel you pain...lol.
We all were pre-schoolers at any given points in our lives!
I didn't know any of this 12 years ago when we bought our C34, having had a C22 and a C25 before. I just started reading, and reading and reading. When we bought our boat in 1998 I started by drawing wiring diagrams. I didn't know how it worked, but once it was down on paper, it started making sense.
So many people ask electrical questions in multiple paragraphs when a wiring diagram would make so much more sense. The "picture's worth a thousand words" phrase does apply.
I didn't know any of this 12 years ago when we bought our C34, having had a C22 and a C25 before. I just started reading, and reading and reading. When we bought our boat in 1998 I started by drawing wiring diagrams. I didn't know how it worked, but once it was down on paper, it started making sense.
So many people ask electrical questions in multiple paragraphs when a wiring diagram would make so much more sense. The "picture's worth a thousand words" phrase does apply.
Greg, I was responding to your desire to "isolate the starter" in suggesting that the starter cables only go through the 1,2,B switch. Then with another on/off switch you can control the house bank's power flow for other electrical needs.
With the starter switch (1,2,B) set to the starter battery only there should be no "surge spikes" to your electric instruments - gps, etc. powered through the on/off switch by the house batteries.
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