help changing battery bank.

Stu Jackson · Dec 22, 2009

Hi, try this: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104505 Page two has the keys to the answer. Get the alternator output off the switch, run it to your new big house bank. You can charge the reserve bank with another switch, a relay, an echo charger or the 1-2-B switch, your boat, your choice. Actually, the reserve bank could also not be tied into the alternator output at all, and just tied to the shorepower battery charger only if you're not a full time cruiser and just use the boat on weekends. Simple. And you don't need any other switches.

As you know, what you are doing is a very good thing to do. Your batteries will last longer, and you'll be safer because you'll understand how the 1-2-B switch works and how silly boat builders are to keep running the alternator output through the 1-2-B switch.

Ed Schenck · Dec 22, 2009

Exactly what I have. Switch position #2 goes to the house bank and #1 to the 900cca starter battery. The charger goes to the house bank. The alternator goes to the switch. So the two banks are totally isolated EXCEPT for a battery combiner. When the house bank reaches about 12.6 or.7 the combiner circuit closes and the starter battery is charged. If the switch happens to be in position #1(almost never) then, of course, the alternator is charging the starter battery. Same drill, when it reaches 12.7 then the combiner circuit closes and the alternator is charging the house bank.

Stu Jackson · Dec 22, 2009

Huh? Alternator output goes to the house bank, NOT to the 1-2-B switch. Here is a more detailed discussion of the 1-2-B switch: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html Reply #11 explains the history, Reply #12 has a great Basic Wiring Diagram that clearly shows how it all works. And you can use the 1-2-B switch to charge the reserve bank when using the alternator. How simple can you get?

This linked topic is simply a longer discussion of what Maine Sail explained in my earlier link to the C310 forum.

In fact, that link is already embedded in the C310 Forum discussion topic.

I recommend that you draw a wiring diagram first to figure it out for yourself, 'cuz I don't understand your question.

Ed Schenck · Dec 22, 2009

Right Stu, my alternator #2 red wire is connected to the battery switch. The good feature is that if the combiner fails one bank or the other might be too low to start the Yanmar. If the combiner is bad I can charge either bank depending upon where I put the switch.

I almost never use pos #1, the starter battery. But every once in awhile I will start and leave it on #1 just to be satisfied that the start battery is getting topped off.

Maine Sail · Dec 22, 2009

Ed Schenck said:
Right Stu, my alternator #2 red wire is connected to the battery switch. The good feature is that if the combiner fails one bank or the other might be too low to start the Yanmar. If the combiner is bad I can charge either bank depending upon where I put the switch.

I almost never use pos #1, the starter battery. But every once in awhile I will start and leave it on #1 just to be satisfied that the start battery is getting topped off.

Ed,

As long as you are the only person who ever touches the battery switch this is fine, but it can still leave room for human error, and fried diodes, if you pass through OFF when using the switch with the motor running.

Even by wiring the alt to the house bank you still retain full charging capability of both banks by firing up the motor and selecting the BOTH function. This is essentially exactly what your combiner does only it does it automatically with voltage cut in /cut out set points vs. manually.

I think it would be very, very unlikely that you would see a combiner fail. My Yandina has about 3000 hours on it and has never so much as hiccuped. I am planning on installing a Duo Charge or Echo when I do my full re-wire but will leave the combiner in place with an emergency switch so that it can be used in the event of the Echo or Duo failing. At that point I will have triple charging redundancy..

You don't have to wire directly to the house bank but it is a safe and wise solution and one that 100% avoids ever frying the alternator diodes. I have seen sooo many threads over the years, and have known many sailors whom have fried alternator diodes, some of them miles from any possibility of repair including my next door neighbors when they were in their late 70's. I can't think of any reported failures of an ACR type relay, yet.

The problem of fried diodes is so common there is actually a company making money off of preventing fried diodes called Zap-Stop. Forget Zap-Stop, you can simply wire the alt to the house bank.

If you have a separate #2 wire for the alt, running to the switch, you only need to move it from the common post on the 1/2/BOTH/OFF to the house bank post on the back of the switch. It will take 30 seconds if you have a separate dedicated alternator supply wire to the C post on the switch. If your house bank is position #2 on the switch move the alt wire from the C post to that post... done...

shemandr · Dec 22, 2009

Thanks all for an enlightening discussion on a subject I have not much knowledge of but is important. I can't even tell an electrician how to set up my battery banks unless I understand the reason to do it one way or another.
A few questions: 1) Seriously - what is "DP" on the diagrams? 2) How do you know when your Diodes are fried? 3) If you have the 2 banks separate, and you are charging directly from the alternator to the "House Bank", how does the other bank get charged?
I have a Freedom 2000 charger/inverter, and link remote control and am struggling to understand how they all integrate.

sailaway78 · Dec 22, 2009

I would recommend

Good advice given. I would also recommend you put a fuse between the alternator and battery if you don't already have one.

Ed Schenck · Dec 23, 2009

Andrew, here is a link to my original H37C wiring diagram( http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...&cat_id=38&aid=6732&page=article&mn=37-cutter ). The wire from "Engine" to switch actually comes from the starter. The #10 wire to the panel comes off that same starter post. The alternator red wire output goes to that same starter post(OK so I oversimplifed in my first post).

The differences on my boat: I also have a Freedom 20. There is a ground and a heavy black wire goes to one of the house batteries. The 110AC comes out of the Freedom 20 as a heavy white 3-wire that goes to your panel Main AC switch. I have four batteries in parallel as the house bank off of the Red #2. Then I have a battery cominber that connects between the single starter battery and one of the house batteries(answer to your question #3).

In the picture you see the heavy #4 black wire on the back of the engine. That is the ground to all five batteries. The white #10 wire is the ground wire to the electrical panel. Then you cannot quite make out the back of the starter. But you can see the two heavy #4 red wires. One goes around to starboard and up to the battery switch. The other is from the alternator.

Stu Jackson · Dec 23, 2009

Wiring diagrams

shemandr said:
1. ...I can't even tell an electrician how to set up my battery banks unless I understand the reason to do it one way or another.

2. A few questions: 1) Seriously - what is "DP" on the diagrams? 2) How do you know when your Diodes are fried? 3) If you have the 2 banks separate, and you are charging directly from the alternator to the "House Bank", how does the other bank get charged?

3. I have a Freedom 2000 charger/inverter, and link remote control and am struggling to understand how they all integrate.

1. To understand you must read the references we have provided as links in this topic. Then you can begin to ask more specific questions, like you just have done.

2. (1) DP could be a few things: distribution panel - the electrical panel with switches and fuses or circuit breakers that serve the DC loads on board; or distribution post - a place to "collect" many different wires at one point, a consolidation concept to make wiring easier, usually done with bus bars or Power Posts.

(2) Fried diodes: when your engine is running and your alternator is NOT putting out any amps. Measure your DC voltage before you start your engine, should be the battery voltage, like around 12.5 or so. Then start your engine. It should be 13.4 or higher, depending on your regulator.

(3) Charging the reserve bank when the AO is run to the house bank is done by many methods, all discussed in Maine Sail's excellent discussions on the C310 Forum, link previously provided in this topic in one of my earlier posts, Reply #2. Relays - the combiner and echo charger are relays, or switches, manual, or using the B on a 1-2-B switch.

3. Having the Freedom should really put you ahead of the pack, because those of us with Freedoms have faced something that most boaters don't ever have to bother with: How to charge multiple battery banks with single output charging sources. So many boaters have multiple output shore power chargers, and rarely think of how to charge their multiple banks because they connect their chargers individually to each bank. Since the Freedoms only have one output, you have to think how it's done, just like single outputs from alternators, right? I had to do that 12 years ago when we bought our Freedom 15. For a view of my boat's wiring diagram, please see Reply #23, here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.15.html

Andrew, this topic has a lot of good links, and I recommend that you review them again, since most of the questions you have are already answered in those links.

The very best way to begin to understand this is to do a wiring diagram. If you do a search on "wiring diagram" on our C34 message board, you'll find many discussions that will help you in your quest. Just type "wiring diagrams" in the search box, with the quotation marks, and there is a lot to read.

With your Link, this should be REQUIRED READING for you: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4922.0.html

What Link model do you have?

Paul F · Dec 23, 2009

To much time before Christmas - Battery Diagram

My boat's charging wiring diagram is displayed below. It is very similar to what Ed has. The only change is a separate on/off switch that connects the alternator and starter key to the battery system. There are two 6 volt house batteries and one starter battery connected by a combiner to equalize charging. The advantage of the separate switch is that it must be on to start the engine and it connects the alternator directly to the battery system.

Steve Dion · Dec 24, 2009

Greg: Take a look at Blue Sea. They make quality stuff. They even have battery switches that have this built in.

shemandr · Dec 24, 2009

Thanks all for the replies and links. That is a lot of information and I'm digesting it. I don't know the link model. I'll have to check when I'm on the boat again.
I've always been suspicious that my batteries are not charging correctly because the LED's indicate the charging is going in the float mode within a few minutes of beginning the cycle even if the VM indicates the battery needs charging. I need to look into this.
I am considering consolidating my two 4D's into one bank and adding a small reserve bank for the engine. I think I can use the Freedom's echo charging feature to charge the second. I would also use a combiner for the battery bank, I think. At any rate, I've got some homework to do.

Stu Jackson · Dec 24, 2009

shemandr said:
1. I've always been suspicious that my batteries are not charging correctly because the LED's indicate the charging is going in the float mode within a few minutes of beginning the cycle even if the VM indicates the battery needs charging. I need to look into this.

2. I am considering consolidating my two 4D's into one bank and adding a small reserve bank for the engine. I think I can use the Freedom's echo charging feature to charge the second. I would also use a combiner for the battery bank, I think.

You don't have much more work to do with the info you now have, since you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

1. The "Gotcha" logarithm answers your question. Adjust the Link, regardless of what model you have, and your batteries will charge just fine through the Freedom and it won't trun to float too early.

2. I forgot that newer Freedoms have their own echo chargers on them. When I bought mine in 1998 they even came with their own size1/0 wires, but no echo chargers. You, therefore, do NOT need a combiner at all. Put your existing batteries together into one big house bank, run both the alternator output and the Freedom output to a PDP (positive distribution post like a Power Post) and then one single wire to your house bank (+) to avoid two big wires on your battery post, and then charge your reserve bank from the echo charger. You are done. Leave the existing 1-2-B switch to simply control the choice of which bank to use for power and starting the engine. Make sure your wire the house bank as Bank #1 and read about F11 in the Link manual if you have a two bank Link. If you do have a 2 bank Link, like the Link 2000, come back here and we'll explain the F11 setting.

Your wiring diagram will look a lot like mine, and like Dave's simple basic wiring diagram previously linked for you.

You already have everything you need for a great system, and the only thing you may need to purchase is wire and cocnnectors.

Ed Schenck · Dec 24, 2009

Greg, I also like dealing with Blue Sea. What some of us call a "battery combiner" they call an "Automatic Charging Relay"( http://bluesea.com/category/2 ). Not sure about price but you can't go wrong with them.

My boat has a West combiner. Probably named because it was sold at West Marine. The difference is, I think, that the ACR connects the battery banks as soon as it senses a charging voltage. The combiner connects the banks after the first bank reaches a float level. Either are simple to install.

Stu Jackson · Dec 24, 2009

Aha!

A new design criteria. I only wish I could read minds!

We also discussed that in earlier links, and if that's what you want, then the double switching similar to Paul's would work for you, so separate the two banks to avoid spikes in your electronics.

Steve Dion · Dec 24, 2009

Greg:

"I also have a 120 v. charger that I believe goes straight to each bank."

Do you mean that the charger does NOT go through the 1-2-b switch? I do not know about anyone else, but that is my preferred method. This way you never need to worry about the selector being at the correct position when plugged into shore power with your charger switched on.

Personally we never switch off of our house bank. I use it for starting & housekeeping. We use a "blue" Optima battery for our back-up starting battery (position 2) and always draw from the house bank (position 1).

I have a Xantrex XC30 and they want the house bank as Bank 1. This charger has the ability to charge 3 different battery chemistries with a single charger. They actually put out 30 amp (or as needed) to each bank as it is charging. Our old Xantrex that we had was a Statpower 40 and the power was split between the banks. That charger would only deal with a single setting for the battery types.

help changing battery bank.

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