Height of genoa

Joe · Sep 11, 2011

Yes.... good idea. I have a couple pendants I use for that exact purpose. You'll love the increased visibility. As for the leads.... you might not need to move them back too much. I made some pendants right in the local West Marine. They have the tools and suppliew right there in the store.

Relentless · Sep 11, 2011

If you are racing its a bad idea,you get better performance with the foot on the deck. If you are cruising it's a great idea, you can see boats coming at you.

Merlin Clark · Sep 11, 2011

I'm not a racer and agree with Joe and GD, it's great being able to see what's in front of the boat from anywhere in the cockpit.
I was doing a "lazy sail" last Saturday with genoa alone and my GPS clocked us up to 5kts over ground (no current or tide in the Banana River) so still doing pretty good!

Stu Jackson · Sep 11, 2011

Pendants: I've made some up at WM over the years. I've found they don't work. Why? Cuz if you move the head of the sail up as far as possible, a wire pendant ONLY has ONE position. Instead, at the tack I use high strength small line, wrapped two or three times thru the tack cringle and the D shackle at the base of the furler (or the deck tack fitting). This way I can easily release and adjust the luff tension. Yeah, I know, I gotta go up on that heaving foredeck at oh dark thirty to tighten it when we unfurl the jib, but I also get to release it at the end of a sail before it gets furled so the luff doesn't stay tensioned all week when I'm not using the boat. Better for the sail.

Don Guillette · Sep 11, 2011

CWKemp: I'm just going to throw this out as a thought and it has never come to mind until I read your question. RichH and Joe from San Diego, guys that are much more scientific than I am, (all I am is a sting puller - I don't know why a lot of things happen but I know how to make it work for me).

Anyway, the wind force at the top of a 45' mast blows 60% harder than at deck level. That's one of the reasons the sail maker builds twist into the sails. If he didn't you couldn't control the boat or the sails. The wind force you feel on the back of your neck is not the wind at the top of the mast and it has to do with friction. As the wind at deck level blows over the water friction is created and the wind force is slowed down. You know who told me that? - Dennis Conner. A hundred years ago, while at the America Cup races in San Diego, my wife and I were at a small bar on Shelter Island and a guy came in and sat next to me and we started talking about the races. I had no idea who he was until some Aussie guys started talking to him and called him Dennis. We talked for about 30 minutes about sail trim and when I got back to the hotel I wrote down everything I could remember and then I bought his book. I've use his book "Sail Like A Champion" so much as my bible that the binding is falling apart and all the pages are loose.

So, with the theory I just made up in mind, if I had a choice of fixing my sail closer to deck level or closer to the top of the mast I'd go with placing it closer to the top of the mast to take advantage of the higher wind power. The best choice with be a sail with a luff that goes from deck level to the top of the mast to take advantage of the full vertical spectrum of the wind.

I just pulled all of that out of you know where. Hopefully, Joe from San Diego and Richh and anyone else who knows more about this than I do, will fill in the needed info.

Idratherbesailing · Sep 11, 2011

Just a thought...sail higher on mast equals center of effort higher on mast equals more tilt...not sure how that works for overall speed, probably depends on boat. Me, I like being to see under the genny so I attach sail to top and pendant to bottom...not a racer.

Joe · Sep 11, 2011

I'm still using hank on sails.. but Stu's issue would make sense to those with RF ... perhaps an adjustable tack line, like what you use on the asymetrical.

sinnettc · Sep 11, 2011

FWIW, I've seen a number of C22's, and other masthead type boats, with head sails that are shorter than the forestay, so I suppose that' may be a design thing. We saw one boat (briefly) rigged with the clew and head reversed this summer too, but that's another story.

I've been flying a North Sails G3 Genaker for a C22 on my Capri 22 Tall Rig. It's probably about 2-3 feet shorter than optimal for my boat but the price is right (it's a loaner). The first time we (successfully) sailed with it we ran it all the way up to the top of the mast. What I found was that we were very easily overpowered if I got too far off the wind - as in "yikes, it would be really easy to get knocked down right now!" Through a bit of trial and error we've figured out that it works best if we've got the tack about a foot off the pulpit, which puts the head about a foot or 18 inches below the masthead sheave.

What I'm saying is a bit of trial and error may be worthwhile, but don't be surprised if you find yourself heeling more as you raise the jib higher.

Joe · Sep 11, 2011

cwkemp said:
I got a good spectrum of thoughts and options here.................. Of course I think I would really like to have a sail that would stretch from stem to masthead, in the meanwhile I’ll optimize what I have..............................

If you add some purchase or run the tackline to a winch... you could use it like a jib cunningham. Another benefit from getting the foot off the deck is that it helps keep the deck and cockpit dry, that's another reason most cruising and off shore headsails are cut with a medium or high clew. The full hoist, "decksweeper" racing genoas are very effecient, but when trimmed inside the lifelines on the upwind leg, they collect all the green water and funnel it right back to the cockpit.

KandD · Sep 12, 2011

I made a penant for mine out of the old spinnaker sheets I had (the sail didn't come with the boat) just a figure 8 in a bite on each end, has worked great for me. The reason I did mine was to get the foot over the life lines, I didn't think about performance or vis all that much, just figured there would be less wear/tear on the sail. I don't think it helped visibility any, I just sit on the windward side and rarely run wing and wing. We have a 120.

Joe · Sep 12, 2011

KandD said:
I made a penant for mine out of the old spinnaker sheets I had (the sail didn't come with the boat) just a figure 8 in a bite on each end, has worked great for me. The reason I did mine was to get the foot over the life lines, I didn't think about performance or vis all that much, just figured there would be less wear/tear on the sail. I don't think it helped visibility any, I just sit on the windward side and rarely run wing and wing. We have a 120.

It's the leeward side that has obstructed visibility on a big decksweeping sail. Many sailmakers will insert a large window in the sail to help the windward side crew see obstacles and other boats.... trust me... it's an issue, especially if you're in a crowded area sailing alone or with inattentive crew. The helmsman often moves to leeward when rounding a mark so he can see what's happening.

Don Guillette · Sep 12, 2011

Years ago during a beer can race sponsored by Shoreline YC of Long Beach, Ca I was sailing on a Newport 30 with a 150 deck sweeper. Obviously, our view was obstructed but we were aware of our limitations and were vigilent but not vigilent enough. Unfortunatley and out of nowhere, the Shoreline YC club race boat appeared cutting across our bow. The first we saw of them was when a streak of yellow (the boat was called Yellow Jacket) was right in front of our bow to the extent a person could jump across the boats. There was no time to do anything other than turn away but it was too late. Our bow crashed into the rear quarter of the club boat and we were stuck there - sort of like the Andrea Doria. Our bow was IN the cabin of the other boat. We were luckly the club race boat didn't sink when we were pushed free. They thought they could clear us but misjudged and we should have seen them coming but didn't. What a mess but with some of those deck sweepers it's like sailing blind.

Joe · Sep 12, 2011

One fine day, I was motoring out the Mission Bay channel with the main up and the hanked on 150 decksweeper resting on the foredeck, waiting for the hoist. Normally, when i'm out by myself I'll use the 110 because it's a high cut clew...easier to handle and I can see under the sail..... but today, well... I was feeling frisky. Anyhow, I started hauling up the sail, steering with my knees.... didn't think I needed to engage the tiller pilot for such a menial task. Of course, the larger sail required a bit more effort, I had to winch the last foot or so....now steering with my foot, leaning forward to manage it... Voila! the sail is up, but it's big and I need to head up to pull in the sheet without the winch... so... I steer up and ..... holy crispies!!!! I miss the major, big ass, channel bouy by less that a foot.... I never i saw it because I forgot about the blind side and I was too busy handling the big sail..... If I hadn't altered course so I could handle the sheet without the winch I would have smashed right into the floating steel obstacle. I was so close the harbor seals that normally hang there had jump clear with me bearing down on them at 5 kts.............. no crash like Don's .... but frightening just the same....

Rick D · Sep 13, 2011

Window

I had a window put in my old 120. It was a great help. My (newer) 133 is a deck-sweeper, but I don't want to put a window in it for shape reasons. If i can find a sail maker who will do it and it won't wreck the shape or range, I will do it. It's a PITA to try to look around it when short or single-handed.

Stu Jackson · Sep 13, 2011

sinnettc said:
FWIW, I've seen a number of C22's, and other masthead type boats, with head sails that are shorter than the forestay, so I suppose that' may be a design thing. We saw one boat (briefly) rigged with the clew and head reversed this summer too, but that's another story.

Chris, I did just that one a rental one day. "OK, Stu, you can leave as soon as you put the jib on rightside up!"

"But it's still a 110%," I replied.

Joe, isn't it funny how those beastly buoys keep showing up? Either that or you're the ONLY two sailboats on a huge lake...

RichH · Sep 14, 2011

Keeping the genoa's tack on the deck fitting will increase the 'end plate' effect thus making the sail more aerodynamically efficient; plus, will minimize the heeling moment. The 'end plate effect' stops the 'short circuiting' of airflow from the higher pressure side (windward) to the low pressure (leeward) side .... the sail 'as close to the deck as possible' will lessen this 'short circuiting' of the air flow.

Raising the sail along the forestay with a pendant, etc. will lessen the aerodynamic efficiency and also result in a greater heeling moment ... both 'bad'.

A 'deck sweeper' that is 'full hoist' is the very best.

;-)