Heard on the radio today
- Thread starter Roger Long
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druid....
re: your #80.
Was the "honking" as in NYC cab driver or legitimate audible signals?
Just curious,
Paul
re: your #80.
Was the "honking" as in NYC cab driver or legitimate audible signals?
Just curious,
Paul
We have lots of commercial traffic in the PNW and learn to stay away from it. They don't monitor 16, they are on 5 or 14 with VTS. Most commercial units appreciate a call in crossing situations but keeping the VTS folks appraised of your course works as well. Some of the giant container ships out here are doing upwards of THIRTY KNOTS and you play with them at YOUR peril. I can turn a helluva lot faster than they can and whatever I'm doing can wait until they clear off.
Good point. When ships enter a VTS area they are not required to and usually don't monitor 16. They will monitor 13 as well as a VTS working frequency.
--Tom.
Ships and Channels
DaveD...
I'm not a commercial captain. However, I am a former Navy Officer (in my early life) and I have been on the bridge of that 500-600 ft. ship in those shipping channels. Now, I'm just a retired guy with a sailboat. So, I've been on both sides of these situations. As to what a small boat (power or sail) should do, read my earlier posts (before the "get out of my way" posts - Devil's Advocate to try to get people to see there are two sides to the situation and that we share the water). Those posts largely tell you what to do. In general, where you can, stay clear of the shipping channels. Normally, a shipping channel is relatively narrow with deep water say 50-60 ft. deep in the channel. In most places (but not always - consult your charts), the water does not go immediately from 50 ft. to 10 ft., but rather over some distance. You are safe in this area outside the shipping lane with the small boat. If you must be tacking, you do cover a broader area so you might occasionly get into the channel, but hold to one side. Your tacking back and forth is perhaps clear to you, but from the bridge of that ship, you are steering an erratic course, and who on the ship knows where you are going next. If you have to be in the channel, hold to one side close to the bouys..a previous poster mentioned going to (near) the bouy. If you are in the ship channel, it would not be unreasonable to expect, and nice of you, to start your engine well before the ship gets near you and motor sail parallel to and at the edge of the channel. The ship is highly unlikely to come that close to the edge and you will be safe. When you have to cross the shipping channel and there is shipping nearby, do so at a ninety degree angle and quickly. If the winds are low, again crank up the engine to get you across. Quite often, you are not the only small boat out there, so from the ship's bridge, he is dealing with multiple boats ahead. Once, going into Naples, Italy, we had to go through a channel with harbor entrance breakwaters on either side of the channel, and there were 17 fishing boats in the channel entrance to the harbor, and the ship couldn't get out of the channel or maneuver - it worked out ok, but there were lots of nervous people on the bridge of the ship. Unfortunately, that is not unusual.
We should be aware that the rules of the road give the right of way (i.e. stand on vessel) to the large vessel that is restricted in maneuverbility by his size/draft in the channel. Think of it being like you driving down a one lane road with little or no brakes and with obstacles on either side, while ahead, there are kids on tricycles or skateboards in the middle of the road. You are extremely limited in what you can do...in a normal car, you would stop, but remember, we don't have the brakes on the ship. So it's simple, we small boaters should just stay out of the way of these large ships. And no matter how you interpet the situation and who has the right of way, a large ship striking a small boat is always going to wind up with the small boat being the loser...so stay clear.
druid ..
When a ship leaves the channel, he has just as much right to make a course change as you do. It can be confusing. But you know already that once the ship leaves the shipping channel that he is going to change course to where ever he is headed. This is a good reason that one should stay clear of those areas. Using your radio to coordinate with the ship, especially when he alters course unexpectedly is a good idea, but frequently you may not be able to raise him on the radio. So, if he alters course, you have to respond also. Actually, on the ships at sea, this frequently occurs between ships and it's frustrating/confusing on the ships also, and you'd be surprised at the number of near misses that occur. As for the ferry incident, we don't know enough about the situation to correctly analyze it, but if the ferry was sounding his horn (honking) at you, he was definitely questioning what you were doing and didn't (from his perspective) think that you were doing the correct thing.
DaveD...
I'm not a commercial captain. However, I am a former Navy Officer (in my early life) and I have been on the bridge of that 500-600 ft. ship in those shipping channels. Now, I'm just a retired guy with a sailboat. So, I've been on both sides of these situations. As to what a small boat (power or sail) should do, read my earlier posts (before the "get out of my way" posts - Devil's Advocate to try to get people to see there are two sides to the situation and that we share the water). Those posts largely tell you what to do. In general, where you can, stay clear of the shipping channels. Normally, a shipping channel is relatively narrow with deep water say 50-60 ft. deep in the channel. In most places (but not always - consult your charts), the water does not go immediately from 50 ft. to 10 ft., but rather over some distance. You are safe in this area outside the shipping lane with the small boat. If you must be tacking, you do cover a broader area so you might occasionly get into the channel, but hold to one side. Your tacking back and forth is perhaps clear to you, but from the bridge of that ship, you are steering an erratic course, and who on the ship knows where you are going next. If you have to be in the channel, hold to one side close to the bouys..a previous poster mentioned going to (near) the bouy. If you are in the ship channel, it would not be unreasonable to expect, and nice of you, to start your engine well before the ship gets near you and motor sail parallel to and at the edge of the channel. The ship is highly unlikely to come that close to the edge and you will be safe. When you have to cross the shipping channel and there is shipping nearby, do so at a ninety degree angle and quickly. If the winds are low, again crank up the engine to get you across. Quite often, you are not the only small boat out there, so from the ship's bridge, he is dealing with multiple boats ahead. Once, going into Naples, Italy, we had to go through a channel with harbor entrance breakwaters on either side of the channel, and there were 17 fishing boats in the channel entrance to the harbor, and the ship couldn't get out of the channel or maneuver - it worked out ok, but there were lots of nervous people on the bridge of the ship. Unfortunately, that is not unusual.
We should be aware that the rules of the road give the right of way (i.e. stand on vessel) to the large vessel that is restricted in maneuverbility by his size/draft in the channel. Think of it being like you driving down a one lane road with little or no brakes and with obstacles on either side, while ahead, there are kids on tricycles or skateboards in the middle of the road. You are extremely limited in what you can do...in a normal car, you would stop, but remember, we don't have the brakes on the ship. So it's simple, we small boaters should just stay out of the way of these large ships. And no matter how you interpet the situation and who has the right of way, a large ship striking a small boat is always going to wind up with the small boat being the loser...so stay clear.
druid ..
When a ship leaves the channel, he has just as much right to make a course change as you do. It can be confusing. But you know already that once the ship leaves the shipping channel that he is going to change course to where ever he is headed. This is a good reason that one should stay clear of those areas. Using your radio to coordinate with the ship, especially when he alters course unexpectedly is a good idea, but frequently you may not be able to raise him on the radio. So, if he alters course, you have to respond also. Actually, on the ships at sea, this frequently occurs between ships and it's frustrating/confusing on the ships also, and you'd be surprised at the number of near misses that occur. As for the ferry incident, we don't know enough about the situation to correctly analyze it, but if the ferry was sounding his horn (honking) at you, he was definitely questioning what you were doing and didn't (from his perspective) think that you were doing the correct thing.
The whole point of the steering and sailing rules is to prevent this kind of situation. If a risk of collision exists between two vessels and they follow the rules they will pass safely. An important premise of the rules is that only one vessel should alter at a time (rules 16 and 17). In that context, I don't have a clue about what you're implying in the quoted text. What am I missing? Were you responsible for making navigational decisions when you were a naval officer?
--Tom.
Responding to the Other Ship
Two ships are on any given courses. Your are watching the other ship some miles away by radar. Being prudent, this is going to develop into a crossing situation (but the other ship has not perceived it to be so yet) and since you are to be the give way vessel, you make an early course change. Good so far. Then, a little later, he makes a course change again, setting up another closing situation. In the new situation, had it been in effect all the while, you are still the give way vessel. Now, you have a choice. You can continue on on the basis of the original situation until you have a situation where both have to take evasive action, which may or not be effective, and risk a collision where you get to explain why he broke the rules, or you can change course again to make sure you have a safe passing.
On Navy ships (at that time) the CIC Watch Officer, the Junior Officer of the Deck, the Officer of the Deck make that course change recommendation through the OOD to the Captain. I have been CIC Watch Officer, JOOD, OOD. And no, we never had a collision on the ships that I served on.
So what are your qualifications to question my qualifications? There are some absurd positions taken and stated on these forums....and you obviously think mine fits in this range. So, you just go ahead and navigate as you want to and I'll do the same. Hope it all works out.
Tom,
Two ships are on any given courses. Your are watching the other ship some miles away by radar. Being prudent, this is going to develop into a crossing situation (but the other ship has not perceived it to be so yet) and since you are to be the give way vessel, you make an early course change. Good so far. Then, a little later, he makes a course change again, setting up another closing situation. In the new situation, had it been in effect all the while, you are still the give way vessel. Now, you have a choice. You can continue on on the basis of the original situation until you have a situation where both have to take evasive action, which may or not be effective, and risk a collision where you get to explain why he broke the rules, or you can change course again to make sure you have a safe passing.
On Navy ships (at that time) the CIC Watch Officer, the Junior Officer of the Deck, the Officer of the Deck make that course change recommendation through the OOD to the Captain. I have been CIC Watch Officer, JOOD, OOD. And no, we never had a collision on the ships that I served on.
So what are your qualifications to question my qualifications? There are some absurd positions taken and stated on these forums....and you obviously think mine fits in this range. So, you just go ahead and navigate as you want to and I'll do the same. Hope it all works out.
And Tom,
Responding to the other ship's course change can be considering what he has done and not making any change in your own course and speed if that is appropriate. Such as maintaining course and speed if you are the stand on vessel.
Responding to the other ship's course change can be considering what he has done and not making any change in your own course and speed if that is appropriate. Such as maintaining course and speed if you are the stand on vessel.
Okay, do we agree that the stand on vessel is making multiple rules violations? That he is operating dangerously, incompetently and illegally? Basically he's in violation of all the steering and sailing rules and rule 34. This happened to you a lot did it? Hmmmm....
Well, you could do that, but it would be idiotic and illegal.
You are required to do this. Just because the other party is behaving stupidly you are not relieved of your responsibilities.
Of course, you failed to follow rule 8, 16, and 34 among others. So, a good deal of the blame is yours. Why didn't you pick up the radio and get a passing agreement? No sound signals? Failed to take actions large enough to be readily apparent. Took a succession of small alterations explicitly breaking rule 8. You too, should be ashamed.
You brought up that you were a naval officer which implies expert knowledge. But, of course, many naval officers have responsibilities that do not include expert knowledge of ship handling or COLREGS. So, my qualification is that I may ask for clarification as a member of this community.
If you logged in and set-up a profile I wouldn't need to ask.
--Tom.
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