Heard on the radio today

[Roger Long]

Tanker departing Portland, Tanker departing Portland, this is the sailboat about a mile ahead. Is there anything we can do to make things easier here?

Sailboat hailing tanker. Yes, do an immediate "U" turn. DO NOT CROSS MY BOW! Go down my port side and pass under my stern. Please do a "U" turn RIGHT NOW! Tanker Energy Hegemony standing by on 16.

(Name changed because I was laughing too hard to remember it.)

 

[Ross]

If you have to be told...........................................................?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Wait, wait

What, No fogget?

 

[duality]

Re: Wait, wait

what is a safe distance to cross in front of a ship? just yesterday we crossed lake michigan and came upon a freighter, we crossed about a half mile before its bow and took some great pictures (dont have camera here right now), after crossing i was watching the amount of bow water this monster was throwing in front of the ship. was this too close?

mike

 

[Roger Long]

was this too close?

That depends partly on how much you value not making the officer of the watch on the ship nervous. It's a bit different out there on the lakes where most vessel have the pilot house at the bow but half a mile for ocean going ships is getting close to the point where they can't see you any more. Their radars often won't be able to see you either under 3 - 4 miles. If rigging, wind, or power failure stop you, only your the radio call will alert them. Many vessels of that size will run over anything close dead head anyway because the stern swings away from the turn and they skid in the turn.

The officer of the ship I heard on the radio also had no way of knowing whether the sailboat was one of the many that assume the big ship will give way because it's a "powerboat" and they are a sailboat. From their stable perspective with a full suite of navigation gear and experience, they may also have been able to see that the sailboat was on an exact collision course whereas the sailboat may have been drastically underestimating the speed of the ship.

Another factor here in Maine is that almost any small vessel can be brought suddenly to a complete stop by snagging a lobster pot, something the pilots know well.

 

[Ross]

Re: Wait, wait

A ship making 12 knots is covering a mile in 5 minutes. I am content to waste 10 minutes waiting for a ship to go by at a safe distance. I just turn and run a course parallel to the ship's course towards the ship and then turn under his stern.

 

[tsmwebb]

... It's a bit different out there on the lakes where most vessel have the pilot house at the bow but half a mile for ocean going ships is getting close to the point where they can't see you any more. Their radars often won't be able to see you either under 3 - 4 miles....

There is supposed to be a lookout as far forward and low to the water as possible. So, even an aft bridge ship should have a lookout on the bow who can see you... Of course, sanity, law and good manners all suggest you should STAY OUT OF THEIR WAY! How far out of the way is a judgment call and giving them a hail on 13 or 16 and talking about it if you think you're ok but want to make sure you aren't making them nervous or if you intend to change course or otherwise do something potentially confusing is a good idea. That's what bridge to bridge traffic is for.

IMO, a half mile is too close to cross ahead if the ship is at sea speed. One mile is about right coastal and two offshore.

--Tom.

 

[Tom Spohn]

Here in Puget Sound we have freighters that are moving at up to 20 knots in addition to the accasional submarine, or last week and aircraft carrier! We shoot for a mile separation. We always have our AIS on and if any doubts arise the MMSI of the large boat is right there and can be called to check on the route they want to take. Local Coast Guard gave a talk to our club and advised that most freighters do not post a lookout as they should and there is a significant blind spot fore and aft of the vessel. We treat them as we would a large, mad, hungry grizzly bear coming our way in the forest!

 

[tsmwebb]

If you have to be told...........................................................?

Then you're following the law? A passing agreement is a good and required thing.

We don't know the what the crossing situation looked like. Maybe it was laughable and maybe it wasn't. It is easy to imagine a situation where the sailboat was making an safe cross but noticed that the tanker was altering a bit and speeding up. It still might look ok but the sailboat doesn't know the tankers intentions. Will he keep speeding up or turning? So, the sailboat calls the tanker and asks for permission to cross ahead (but being polite phrases it to make clear that he is the give way vessel). The tanker comes back with a negative, he's not comfortable with that crossing... Ok. Give way complies. This is exactly the way the rules are meant to work...

I'm thinking it is a bad thing to discourage folks from making safety calls for fear of being laughed at.

--Tom.

 

[Ross]

Generally I can see ships at 6-8 miles. I don't wait for them to close to within a mile before I decide that I need to avoid being run down. I never have a destination that is of such importance that a 20 minute detour is a big problem.

 

[Steve Kamp]

While coming up the ICW just south of the Savannah River I could see a parade of inbound container ships in the river channel over the tops of the trees on shore. Each one had hailed potential ICW crossing traffic over channel 16 at least a mile and a half from the crossing. There was a gap of about two miles between two and I hailed both by vessel name. They advised me to cross the leader's stern perpendicular to the river channel quickly and then hug the North bank until entering the ICW cut northbound.
Everything worked out well as we all knew what our actions were to be.
Steve

 

[tsmwebb]

Generally I can see ships at 6-8 miles. I don't wait for them to close to within a mile before I decide that I need to avoid being run down. I never have a destination that is of such importance that a 20 minute detour is a big problem.

For ships maneuvering in harbor? This call was about a ship coming out of Portland.

When I was up in SF Bay I did some racing and was amazed at how close yachts were passing ships. At one point we had a fleet racing down the Alameda Channel while a ship was turning in the channel and the fleet split and went around them bow and stern within feet of the ends of the ship and the sides of the channel... I was gobsmacked. But, both the ship and the yachts seemed ok with the deal. Anyway, my point is that 6-8 miles, even 1 mile can be unrealistic when dealing with ships in or near harbor. And, when in doubt, pick up the phone -- that's what it is for.

And, consider this, it may be that the sailboat had no intention of crossing, maybe the ship was turning towards him. One moment there is no danger and the tanker will cross ahead and the next, because of the actions of the tanker, there is a problem. In that case, he's asking the tanker "should I stand on or do I need to do something to stay out of your way?". Again, if the intentions of the tanker aren't clear, calling is the smart and legal thing to do.

--Tom.

 

[Roger Long]

For ships maneuvering in harbor? This call was about a ship coming out of Portland.

I could actually see the tanker at the time although way up in the islands. It was out where many small boaters might assume it was an open water situation but the large tankers are constrained by their draft for a surprising distance out of Portland due to numerous ledges and relatively shallow spots.

As for the bow lookouts, if you put yourself in a situation where the visual contact from the ship will have a possible impact on your future, you have put your life in someone's hands. I see a big difference in putting such trust in the hands of a highly trained officer at the navigational nerve center of the ship and a bored ordinary seaman way off in a remote part of the vessel. I just pretend there are no bow lookouts. Ships that size I just pretend are guided from Mars.

 

[tsmwebb]

I could actually see the tanker at the time although way up in the islands. It was out where many small boaters might assume it was an open water situation but the large tankers are constrained by their draft for a surprising distance out of Portland due to numerous ledges and relatively shallow spots.

Sure, but the sailboat asked "is there anything we can do to make things easier here?" To me that sounds like they understand that they are give way and are asking for advice on how best to do that... Are you saying it would have been better if they hadn't called?

Amen on the assumption that ships can't see you. All the more reason to call though.

HAPPY 4Th to all us Yanks! :dance: (Happy 5th to the the New Zealand crowd)!

--Tom.

 

[Stu Jackson]

AIS unforseen consequences

Ah, now we have new kid on the block: AIS. So a bunch of guys on small boats are now using their radios to call (pester!) busy skippers and pilots on large vessels and asking them: "what should I do to help?" or "Am I in your way?"

And only because their AIS gives the ship's name.

This is absurd!

It's so simple: stay out of their way, and just leave 'em alone.

I sail in & out of the Oakland Alameda Estuary that Tom mentioned. The place where they turn ships around is called the Schnitzer Turning Basin. I would never go behind one of those turning vessels because of the prop wash from the ships and tugs, but there really IS plenty of room to go around in front, because they dug out a chunk of shoreline and built a big concrete breakwater. The ships are essentially motionless and being moved in a circle by the two tugs to turn the ships around.

We monitor Ch. 14, VTS here religiously, never call any ships because they have a ROUTE, and we stay the heck out of their way.

What's so hard here?

 

[Napa Ed]

Close call

I had a close call last weekend. I was out in light wind with an asym up and moving about 4 knots. I was in the cockpit but a tiller pilot was doing the work. I somehow got engrossed fiddling with the gps unit. I was standing at the companionway but had been looking down for a while. I was scrolling throught the speed settings when I heard two blasts of a big horn. Looked up to see a tanker 50 years off my starboard bow. We were pointing in almost opposite directions but I would have given him a nasty glancing blow mid-ships. Thank god he was at anchor.

 

[Roger Long]

Are you saying it would have been better if they hadn't called?

Yes, if the sailboat had properly interpreted the situation they would have already made the "U" turn or some other clear maneuver to demonstrate that they would not be a traffic factor. Maybe the person on the tanker radio was just having some fun with them but it did sound like a situation in which the CPA was going to be below the amount where the outcome could be confidently predicted. Obviously, it is a good thing the sailboat did call in this case but the mistake was letting things get so far.

I was posting mostly for the humor of a situation which struck me as being sort of like someone lying on the railroad tracks with a train coming asking, "Do you think I should get up?"

If you must chat them up in a situation like this, a better call would be along the lines of, "Tanker, sailboat 1 mile off your port bow will remain clear of _____ channel on your port side. Standing by on 16."

There are situations in which use of the radio is essential to collision avoidance but this wasn't one of them. If every recreational boater out there felt like they just had to talk to someone on the bridge of the tankers, the airwaves would be too congested to be useful.

 

[tsmwebb]

...
And only because their AIS gives the ship's name.

If they had AIS they wouldn't have hailed the tanker in the way they did... I don't think AIS has anything to do with it.

...It's so simple: stay out of their way, and just leave 'em alone.

Context matters. There are times when you are legally required to have a passing agreement and there are times when it is a good idea and there are lots of times when silence is golden. There are times when how you get out of their way will depend on what they are going to do, so it can be good to know what that is. I know a couple of tug skippers and they practically beg people to call them on the radio. It isn't any easier for them to read our minds than it is for us to read theirs.

I sail in & out of the Oakland Alameda Estuary that Tom mentioned. The place where they turn ships around is called the Schnitzer Turning Basin. I would never go behind one of those turning vessels because of the prop wash from the ships and tugs, but there really IS plenty of room to go around in front...

Well, I was amazed. If we'd done that in Honolulu we'd have had law enforcement all over us. One boat broaching could have taken out the whole fleet. I'm thinking rounding up into a turning ship prop pretty much defines "bad". But my point was that, as an example of a class of situations, there is no way you can have a one mile CPA in that channel or that you could anticipate a problem 6-8 miles away.

Just for the record, I monitored VTS and I didn't hail any ships in SF bay when I was navigating my own boat there and found AIS useful in staying so far out of the way that there was never any need. That's the goal, for sure. But your radio is there for a reason. There is no shame in using it for its intended purpose.

--Tom.

 

[Ross]

I compare small pleasure boats(that's what we have)in the shipping traffic to pedestrians in a busy truck stop. You keep your eyes open and stay clear of traffic.

 

[tsmwebb]

...
If you must chat them up in a situation like this, a better call would be along the lines of, "Tanker, sailboat 1 mile off your port bow will remain clear of _____ channel on your port side. Standing by on 16."...

This pre-supposes that the evasion maneuver is obvious. I'm not saying it wasn't just that there are times when it isn't. Suppose the sailboat is out sailing around in deep water and the tanker comes out of a channel on a heading that will take him miles from the sailboat. Now that he's in open water the tanker starts making a major turn in the direction of the sailboat. Now, the sailboat doesn't know what the tanker's ultimate heading will be. Does he intend to pass ahead or astern? If he guesses wrong he'll make matters worse. So, why guess? Pick-up the radio and ask.

I don't have a clue what the situation really was. It is easy (actually easier) to imagine situations where the sailboat was acting moronically. And, it might well have been a funny exchange. But I hate to make people fear the radio.

--Tom.