Heard on the radio today

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Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
It seems like it would be more dangerous to take the time to do a U-turn than to just alter course to make sure you are out of the way. The few times I have went any where in my boat have been in the channel. It just doesn't seem that difficult especially when there are 100' boats passing each other in the channel.
BTW-do you know that helmut is slang for the head of a penis? Are you meaning to be that rude or just making fun of my screen name and made a mistake?
 
Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
Helmut,

When most people think in terms of a mile, it seems like a long distance. One has to think in a whole different realm when considering distances on ships. Large ships (and I assume tugboats also) are restricted by the channel. They can't maneuver to avoid a small boat. Many of these ships take over 1/4-1/2 mile to stop in emergency conditions. It's perhaps 1/4 - 1/2 mile to make a 180 degree turn. The channel is frequently more narrow than this. If he were to make such a stop, he is subject to go aground out of the channel once stopped or below steerageway. And if he makes such a stop to avoid you, you'll be at fault...any idea what it's going to cost you to get him refloated, checked by divers for damage, and to make repairs to the hull, prop, or rudder? It's hard to judge speed and distance over open water, and its the small boat who is making this judgement. Even if you are a saiboat and he is a power vessel, he has the right of way due to being restricted in his maneuverability by the channel and his draft. So yes, you have a right to be in the channel, but you have no right to endanger both vessels by crossing ahead of him. Hey, you are on a sailboat...by definition we sailboaters like to go slow (vs. speeds available from pleasure powerboats), so what's the big deal if we have to alter course a bit to make sure we cross under the ship's stern (and even here, tugs can present special problems with tows.....and if you take the trouble to learn the navigation lights, you can tell by the tug's lights that he has a tow behind him, and the tow normally exhibits some lights also). When you elect to cross the ship astern of him, if you make an error in judgement, you simply turn away from the direction of the ship and everything is ok. And if you must, because of the channel width and shoals that restrict both of you, come close to the ship in passing down his side towards his stern, start your engine just in case you need it. Also, when near these ships, sailors should be aware that they kick up some huge wakes that give you an additional set of problems.
Not only were you insulting, you said absolutely nothing that pertains to this discussion.
 
N

NC-C320

My Mistake...Sorry

Are you meaning to be that rude or just making fun of my screen name and made a mistake?
I just misspelled your name...sorry, no insult intended. Also, didn't mean any insults to others, but I do find it a bit distressing at the views some have expressed regarding operating small boats in proximity of large vessels, especially crossing in front of ships. Obviously some judgement is required...a 100 ft. commercial vessel is quite a bit different from a 600 ft. tanker. I just don't understand why one would even want to challenge one or take the risk....little to be gained.

This thread seems to have multiple directions going simultaneously. Perhaps Franklin is right, but he could also be in error.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: My Mistake...Sorry

All those who are certain that the wind and their engine will allow them to cross the bow of a ship one mile away and closing please don your PFD's. ;)
 
Jan 1, 2009
371
Atlantic 42 Honolulu
Roger,

This is strangely fascinating. Kind of you to start it all. :)

I'm looking at a chart of Portland and wondering where you think this event took place... I've gotta admit it doesn't look like there could be much mystery about the route of a tanker inside Portland head. But I don't know what you mean by way up in the islands. Does that mean is was up near Diamond I? They'd be making a big change to stb there which would explain their desire to keep the sailboat to port... But, the mile ahead thing doesn't make much sense from there... Doesn't really matter but you've got me wondering...

--Tom.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Roger, This is strangely fascinating. Kind of you to start it all. :)
It's also being dissected in far more detail than the OP, which was meant to be just a funny story rather than a crossing situation analysis, warrants. However, it has started a useful discussion. I could hear the tanker much better than the sailboat due to the radio differences and didn't really start to pay attention until the tanker responded. I wouldn't swear in court that the sailboat said "a mile". However, it was out where the big ships start to pick up enough speed that trying to do a bow cross at a mile in the light winds would have been dicey. The winds were also flukey and patchy which would have been easy for the tanker officer to observe.

The tanker was just a blob on the horizon to me but here is my best estimate of the actual situation.

The tanker was actually exiting the adjacent Hussy Sound Anchorage, not Portland Harbor. I said "harbor" because who has heard of Hussy Sound? I was at the blue "X" near the tanker track at the top of the chart looking down through the islands. The sailboat's possible track (I couldn't see it) and course based on the wind direction I was experiencing is shown at the bottom and 1 mile long for scale.

Note that the tanker is about to thread the narrow passage between two ledges at the bottom. He really, really doesn't want to make any course changes at that point. He is either going between the two buoys or he is going over the ledges. If one of the several sailboats out there was on a zero CPA course in the light flukey winds and one of them (the tanker wouldn't know for sure which) called up asking what to do, I think I would ask for a "U" turn myself. What if it was a different boat calling? CPA is only 3 - 4 minutes away. Few recreational boaters would be aware that the tanker was constrained by those two buoys far from shore in water too deep to be a navigational consideration for a small vessel. This is Maine, the land of 60 foot depths 100 feet from shore and it would feel like open ocean out there.
 

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Boompa

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Jan 16, 2009
27
2 Out Island 30 South Shore
Read this entire post...I run out of Hingham and Boston and sometimes feel like a squirrel trying to cross the road out there. I strive to stay some distance from fast moving tugs and ships but from what I gather, a good rule of thumb is a 1 mile distance and avoid crossing anyones bow....'lot of dead squirrels out there'...
 
Jun 26, 2007
106
Freedom F39 Lyttelton New Zealand
Part of a rhyme I once heard about a sailor who came unstuck when insisting on his right of way goes "He was right, dead right! But he's jsut as dead as if he'd been wrong" Does anyone know the rest of this rhyme or where it came from?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I did the math just for fun. A ship making 12 knots is making 1200 feet per minute and a boat making 5 knots is making 500 feet per minute. If boat is 2000 feet to the port side of the ships course and crosses the ships bow, starting when the ship is one mile out, the boat will be clear by 500 feet when the ship crosses the boat's course.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Part of a rhyme I once heard about a sailor who came unstuck when insisting on his right of way goes "He was right, dead right! But he's jsut as dead as if he'd been wrong" Does anyone know the rest of this rhyme or where it came from?
Might be: "He was right, dead right, as he went along. But now he's dead, just as dead as if he'd been wrong."
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I did the math just for fun. A ship making 12 knots is making 1200 feet per minute and a boat making 5 knots is making 500 feet per minute. If boat is 2000 feet to the port side of the ships course and crosses the ships bow, starting when the ship is one mile out, the boat will be clear by 500 feet when the ship crosses the boat's course.
And if the boat was pinching into the wind a 180 or u-turn would have been a reasonable suggestion based on the ledges in Roger's chart above. If the sailor was pinching already, on a STBD tack, passing behind the ships stern would have been nearly impossible without tacking, and falling off the wind, would have put the sail boat on a path for the ledges....
 
N

NC-C320

Insult...

Not only were you insulting, you said absolutely nothing that pertains to this discussion.
Franklin,

I went back and reread my posts on this topic. I don't think I insulted anyone except perhaps those who don't navigate in a responsible way. I stand by what I said except for mispelling Hermit's name.

You, for one, were really quick to get on the ship captain's case, and revealed a good bit about yourself in the way you posted.

You also suggested changing course a few degrees or slowing a bit to get safe passage. While technically this is frequently possible, it confuses the hell out of the other vessel. Even with radar, it's hard to tell what you have done, while all the time the two vessels are closing. This is important....boaters should try not to forget it....if you elect to change course or speed to avoid a collision, make a large move so that it's immediately apparent to the other vessel. Our little boats are quite maneuverable and we can always resume course after the event is passed. Lot's of errors on the part of the other vessel stem from us not making clear to the other vessel what we are doing. In such situations, at some point, if he can, the other vessel will likely try to take last minute evasive action, and since you have confused him, the action taken might not be what you expected or wanted.
 
Dec 9, 2008
426
1980 Hunter 30 "Denali" Seaford, VA
Pretty heated thread... The experiences we've had with large ships, mosty naval ships and subs we've always made sure to give plenty of space. Some of those ships are moving deceivingly fast and they can close on you a lot faster than you think. Navy subs tend to have an escort of a couple of RIBs that will approach you and tell you to get out of the way if they think you are a threat to either the ship (or yourselves I suppose).

Related to the commercial shipping, I heard on the radio (FM) this morning that a barge hit part of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Trunnel and close it all down temporarily. From what this short clip from the paper says, it was two barges and traffic is opening back up on one side. I will be waiting to hear more on this incident... It may have been foggy out there, I noticed pretty bad visibility around this morning.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-now-barges-damage-bridge-tunnel.j6,0,7347312.story

"VIRGINIA BEACH - Two barges struck a trestle at the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel early this morning, and the resulting maintenance will cause delays throughout the morning for motorists traveling to and from the Eastern Shore.

Southbound lanes are shut down on at least one of the bridge's spans, but traffic is moving in both directions by utilizing northbound lanes in alternating patterns. Motorists are advised to expect at least half-hour delays.

Tom Anderson, deputy director of the bridge-tunnel, said the two barges - one carrying rocks, the other loaded with heavy equipment - struck the trestle around 6:20 a.m. Emergency crews are on the scene now trying to assess the damage."
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Obviously the sailboat was amendable to making course change or he wouldn't have inquired of the freighter in the first place.

The Chesapeake Bay Harbor Pilots (who board incoming and outgoing freghters) are more than happy to address boating groups and show them the view from the freighters bridge. You'd be surprised how far ahead they cannot see a boat that is in front of them.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
if you elect to change course or speed to avoid a collision, make a large move so that it's immediately apparent to the other vessel. [or the]...other vessel will likely try to take last minute evasive action, and since you have confused him, the action taken might not be what you expected or wanted.
Google "Andrea Doria". I'm just reading "The Radar Book" by Kevin Monahan and he makes this just about the first principle of collision avoidance whether visual or by radar.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
based on the ledges in Roger's chart above. If the sailor was pinching already, on a STBD tack...
Wind was actually from the SW so he would have been on a port tack if close hauled but I'm entirely speculating as to his course. That's about the course I could make on port tack when I got down that way later. I suspect that he was already close enough that, even if he had luffed up and stopped dead in the water, the CPA would have been within the tanker's comfort zone. Winds were pretty light at the time.
 
Jan 1, 2009
371
Atlantic 42 Honolulu
It's also being dissected in far more detail than the OP, which was meant to be just a funny story rather than a crossing situation analysis, warrants.
I hear you. Thanks for the chart, too.

As I look at it the tanker is in the precautionary zone. A boat somewhere between him and the deep water mark might not know which lane the tanker was going to alter for after passing the shoals. That is, there is a potential for the tanker to alter to port to enter the Eastbound lane and a boat on the tankers port side might be concerned about that... Ya think?

--Tom.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Ya think?
I was out that way later and, although I wasn't paying any attention to the tanker at that point, I think he just went straight out over the horizon. After all, that's where the oil is:)
 
Oct 14, 2005
2,191
1983 Hunter H34 North East, MD
Using the AIS Live Ships link...

for commercial traffic on the Chesapeake Bay, I have seen cargo ships traveling in the 15 to 20 knot range and tugs with barges moving in the 8 to 10 knot range. Max boat speed for my 34 is about 7 knots.

Common sense dictates that one should avoid trying to "beat the train to the crossing". They are all faster than I am, and I don't have a laser range finder to determine their distance away. Doing a circle or two or running parallel to the ship channel while waiting for them to clear my intended course is so much less nerve-racking then betting on getting across their ship channel before they pass. Stu's right--leave them alone!
 

Gail R

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Apr 22, 2009
261
Pearson 34 Freeport, ME
Without knowing precisely who was doing what where in regard to the incident Roger related to us, I'll reserve comment on whether "do an immediate U-turn" was an appropirate command. But I find this topi quite timely, considering this column that was in the Portland Pressed Herring on Friday. Roger, did you see this?

'I have the right of way and that oil tanker doesn't - right?'

While the rules may or may not apply, the laws of physics and bad visibility always reign supreme.

BRIAN J. DOWNEY July 3, 2009

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Cmdr. Brian J. Downey of the U.S. Coast Guard is deputy sector commander of Sector Northern New England, based in South Portland.

SOUTH PORTLAND — As a kid growing up around boats, I learned that the marine environment can be a wonderful and rewarding world in which to work and play.
Equally though, I learned that it can be harsh and unforgiving.

I vividly recall a very sad case of a fatal boating accident in Long Island Sound more than 25 years ago that involved a large commercial ship and a small recreational vessel.

Due to the disparity in size between the two vessels, everyone went home from the larger commercial vessel. But two people from the smaller recreational boat did not.
Three decades later, I still think that leaving some distance between those vessels may have saved two lives.

Since boats can navigate virtually anywhere, provided there is enough water to float them, international and domestic navigation regulations were developed to organize "rules of the road" to help mariners safely negotiate traffic as well as better identify vessels both during the day and night.

I offer, though, that there are other considerations beyond the rules of the road to assess situations involving ships, tugs, barges and other large commercial craft.
Going back to my youth, I picture my father at the helm of our 23-foot boat trying to calm my frantic mother by explaining that the big ship in front of us was required to get out of our path as we were under sail, availing us the right of way, assuring our safe passage.

Well -- not exactly. Only in some cases do sailing and fishing vessels have the right of way over deep-draft vessels.

If a ship is in a narrow channel or otherwise constrained by its draft, for example, all bets are off for smaller vessels.

Deviating from the bureaucracy of the regulations, I offer some practical discussion.
Periodically, again as a kid, I would also hear that the crew of nearby ships had radar and that they had been monitoring us for an hour or more.

Yes, ships closely monitor radar – but lower-profile boats, especially those made of fiberglass and wood, don't show up on radar as distinctly as do larger boats made of denser materials.

Another consideration is eye-to-eye visibility of vessels under way, especially container ships and tankers.

While ships vary, the aft house configuration on most modern ships creates a blind spot in front of the bow. In some cases, the blind spot can extend a third of a mile directly in front of the ship.

Crossing a deep-draft ship's path could take a boat into the ship's blind spot. Often this can be done without incident, but not without first causing significant concern of the ship's pilot and bridge watch. As a vessel disappears into the blind spot, the bridge watch is thinking, "We can't see the boat!"

Why does this matter? It's all in the physics. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Big ships are designed to carry big, heavy loads, generally speaking, in a fairly straight line.

While they can maneuver, they aren't as nimble as small boats. Let's take a tanker of 650 feet operating at a modest 6 knots coming into port.

Because of its incredible size and momentum, it could require up to two miles to completely stop using emergency full astern propulsion.

How about an evasive maneuver? If there is adequate sea room, which is doubtful for most ships entering a port, this same tanker could need a half mile to complete a full 90-degree turn.

Add darkness, bad weather or poor visibility and it doesn't take long to figure out this can be a losing proposition for the small boat.

Additionally, maneuvers such as these are dangerous to other boats and ships.
They can put fishing and lobster gear in jeopardy and could ultimately raise the risk of grounding the ship. Ship groundings, especially of tankers, aren't good for anybody.
Boating and commercial fishing are valuable and enriching segments of life on the coast.

Understanding the risks and realizing the capabilities of the ships and commercial vessels will help ensure fun and safe boating and will continue to assure financial security for our fishermen.

The commercial shipping industry is safer now than ever.

Rigorous ship engineering and design standards, state-of-the-art technology and demanding international professional licensing requirements contribute to a strong safety record.

Keeping our waterways safe and productive, however, requires everyone's cooperation. My advice is to stay safe by giving our commercial operators a wide berth.

There's plenty of ocean for all of us.

Copyright © 2009 MaineToday Media, Inc.
 
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