My head on my Hunter has worked great for years... But after a charter today I went to clean up for the next one and there was some liquid in the bottom. I pumped it dry and I noticed the pump was getting stiff. I continued to "flush" mode and it stopped. I could feel the pressure and didn't want to continue on. I noticed it start to drip under the hose connection under the dry/flush knob. I stopped dead in my tracks knowing that I have a 1/2 day tomorrow and a sunset sail after that. After looking around the room, I noticed that a box of Kleanex was empty. I think there was 4 or 5 left in the box. So maybe someone flushed them down the head. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHERE TO LOOK FIRST? I've never had that head apart and it is plumed with a Y valve under the head. One side goes to the tank and the other side goes to a Y valve under the sink. On the second Y valve, one side goes to the sea and the other side goes into the wall and I'm not sure where that goes. If someone can tell me what hose or part needs to be looked at first and then second and then third, I would be very, very thankful. This is not a good weekend for this, but as I think about it, there is not a good weekend for this, but the charter goes out at 11 am so I'm deep in sh**. Thanks for your help and I'll do what I can to help you in the furture. Capt. Paul West s/v Magic Wind Hunter 31, 1986, Hull #714
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Magic Wind
Tank may be full, more likely vent is plugged. Open pump out cap and see if it pumps easier. If it burps out of the pump out line I guess its full.
Tank may be full, more likely vent is plugged. Open pump out cap and see if it pumps easier. If it burps out of the pump out line I guess its full.
It ain't ALL fun y'know....
OK, since I have re-plummed my '86 H31, I'll do my best to recommend some solutions. First, one Y valve sets the flushing to go either to the holding tank or overboard. The second Y valve sets the discharge to either go overboard with the help of the macerator, or to the deck pump-out fitting. If they are the original wye valves, they will probably break when you start working on them, so you should get new ones before starting. What I would do is: 1. Disconnect the hose at the vent. (The upside down 'U' that prevents siphoning water into the boat when heeling.) Then Pump the head to see if it's free. If not, the blockage is between the head and the vent. 2. If it's free, inspect the inside of the vent for a blockage.. 3. If clear, re-connect the hose at the vent, and dis-connect the Y valve from the hose, then pump the head to see if it's free. If not, the blockage is between the vent and the Y valve. By this time you will probably have found the blockage, but if not, follow along to the next connection and repeat the process. This is the way by boat is plummed but there may be some variations in yours. Of course, before you start any of this, empty the holding tank and close your thru-hull. Have a bucket and plenty of rags at hand. Good Luck to you.
OK, since I have re-plummed my '86 H31, I'll do my best to recommend some solutions. First, one Y valve sets the flushing to go either to the holding tank or overboard. The second Y valve sets the discharge to either go overboard with the help of the macerator, or to the deck pump-out fitting. If they are the original wye valves, they will probably break when you start working on them, so you should get new ones before starting. What I would do is: 1. Disconnect the hose at the vent. (The upside down 'U' that prevents siphoning water into the boat when heeling.) Then Pump the head to see if it's free. If not, the blockage is between the head and the vent. 2. If it's free, inspect the inside of the vent for a blockage.. 3. If clear, re-connect the hose at the vent, and dis-connect the Y valve from the hose, then pump the head to see if it's free. If not, the blockage is between the vent and the Y valve. By this time you will probably have found the blockage, but if not, follow along to the next connection and repeat the process. This is the way by boat is plummed but there may be some variations in yours. Of course, before you start any of this, empty the holding tank and close your thru-hull. Have a bucket and plenty of rags at hand. Good Luck to you.
Lessee...
You say the head has worked great for years, which means you've owned the boat for years...but you've never had the head apart--which means it's never had any preventive maintenance, and you have no idea where at least part of the sanitation plumbing goes--which means you can't have a clue about the condition of any of the hose connections in that part of the plumbing, or even whether it's connected to a below waterline thru-hull, any of which could be about to part company, putting you and your passengers at risk...especially if you don't even know which seacock to close--IF it eve still can be closed. First thing to check is the tank vent for a blockage...the two most likely places are the vent thru-hull and the connection to the tank--both the tank fitting and that end of the vent line. Open the deck pumpout cap before disconnecting the vent line from the tank to relieve any pressure in the tank. If the vent is blocked, you won't be able to pumpout or dump the tank until it's cleared, 'cuz without a source of air to replace contents as they're pulled out, the pumpout will pull a vacuum. If a blocked vent isn't the problem, It could be as simple as a toilet pump that just needs lubrication. Or, if it's a Jabsco manual, a failed wet/dry valve...that'll cause backpressure that feels like a clog. Or you may have a buildup of sea water minerals in the head discharge line that's reduced the diameter enough to nearly block the line...a very common problem in sea water toilets in warm waters. Remove the discharge fitting from the toilet to check for this. If it is a buildup, a 12% solution of muriatic acid in water (follow ALL directions for use and handling of muriatic acid VERY carefully!) will clear it. Muriatic acid is available from most hardware stores. It will not harm the rubber parts in the toilet or the sanitation hoses. If none of the above, you'll have to take the whole system apart to find the problem, which most likely is a Kleenex clog, most likely in the y-valve. Do NOT use a plunger to try to clear it...that'll mess up the seals and o-rings in the toilet...open up the y-valve instead. If no clog is there, use a snake.
You say the head has worked great for years, which means you've owned the boat for years...but you've never had the head apart--which means it's never had any preventive maintenance, and you have no idea where at least part of the sanitation plumbing goes--which means you can't have a clue about the condition of any of the hose connections in that part of the plumbing, or even whether it's connected to a below waterline thru-hull, any of which could be about to part company, putting you and your passengers at risk...especially if you don't even know which seacock to close--IF it eve still can be closed. First thing to check is the tank vent for a blockage...the two most likely places are the vent thru-hull and the connection to the tank--both the tank fitting and that end of the vent line. Open the deck pumpout cap before disconnecting the vent line from the tank to relieve any pressure in the tank. If the vent is blocked, you won't be able to pumpout or dump the tank until it's cleared, 'cuz without a source of air to replace contents as they're pulled out, the pumpout will pull a vacuum. If a blocked vent isn't the problem, It could be as simple as a toilet pump that just needs lubrication. Or, if it's a Jabsco manual, a failed wet/dry valve...that'll cause backpressure that feels like a clog. Or you may have a buildup of sea water minerals in the head discharge line that's reduced the diameter enough to nearly block the line...a very common problem in sea water toilets in warm waters. Remove the discharge fitting from the toilet to check for this. If it is a buildup, a 12% solution of muriatic acid in water (follow ALL directions for use and handling of muriatic acid VERY carefully!) will clear it. Muriatic acid is available from most hardware stores. It will not harm the rubber parts in the toilet or the sanitation hoses. If none of the above, you'll have to take the whole system apart to find the problem, which most likely is a Kleenex clog, most likely in the y-valve. Do NOT use a plunger to try to clear it...that'll mess up the seals and o-rings in the toilet...open up the y-valve instead. If no clog is there, use a snake.
Thank You!
Thanks for the quick response... Yep Peggy, I've had this boat for 3 years and I've had the hoses apart twice. I check the valves to make sure there operational. (had to change one, intake, once.) I figured out how to get the stuff to the tanks since I don't put it overboard and check the clamps and hoses. I use KO for the tank and CP for cleaning up and a drop or two of mineral oil to keep it all running smooth. BUT I haven't had the head apart for maintenance. I'm guilty of taking my head for granted... Not a good thing. I do make sure it's safe and doesn't leak and can be shut off in case of emergency, but I really need to do the maintenance thing on the head itself. I did just get a copy of your book. Great job and in the morning I'll be taking all this advice and heading down to the dock and taking it a step at a time. I'll never take that head for granted again and I will know how to fix the problem again so when the next guest pushes that pound of paper down the tubes, I'll know where to look and fix it fast. Keep up the good work and even track down that mystery hose. After my second time in that system, I thought of just plugging it up since it was not being used. Always learning and this form has been the best place to get the advice I have been looking for. Gil and Chuck... Looks like you've been here before. I don't think I'll be the last. Capt. Paul
Thanks for the quick response... Yep Peggy, I've had this boat for 3 years and I've had the hoses apart twice. I check the valves to make sure there operational. (had to change one, intake, once.) I figured out how to get the stuff to the tanks since I don't put it overboard and check the clamps and hoses. I use KO for the tank and CP for cleaning up and a drop or two of mineral oil to keep it all running smooth. BUT I haven't had the head apart for maintenance. I'm guilty of taking my head for granted... Not a good thing. I do make sure it's safe and doesn't leak and can be shut off in case of emergency, but I really need to do the maintenance thing on the head itself. I did just get a copy of your book. Great job and in the morning I'll be taking all this advice and heading down to the dock and taking it a step at a time. I'll never take that head for granted again and I will know how to fix the problem again so when the next guest pushes that pound of paper down the tubes, I'll know where to look and fix it fast. Keep up the good work and even track down that mystery hose. After my second time in that system, I thought of just plugging it up since it was not being used. Always learning and this form has been the best place to get the advice I have been looking for. Gil and Chuck... Looks like you've been here before. I don't think I'll be the last. Capt. Paul
Question for Peggy
Peggy, Since you're on the subject of head pumps, I've got a question about mine. I've got a Crittenden Headmate that one of the PO installed. Last summer I rebuilt the pump and replaced the joker valve - this solved the problem of weak flush water flow and water backing up into the bowl. One thing I still notice is that about 3/4 of the way down in the dry mode, the pump gets hard to push and feels spongy. I believe through reading the archives that I'm pushing air behind the column of water going into the holding tank and since the discharge hose runs uphill into the tank, it may just be the water column pressure (or maybe its just something unique to Crittendens) but it still has me worried that something isn't quite right. I've checked the vent and there are no problems when sucking out the holding tank. I just finished ripping out all the old original stinking sanitation hose and replacing with PVC. If I'm correct about the theory of water columm pressure I'll just leave the old head alone, if not, I'll replace it too and be done with anymore nagging sewage problems.
Peggy, Since you're on the subject of head pumps, I've got a question about mine. I've got a Crittenden Headmate that one of the PO installed. Last summer I rebuilt the pump and replaced the joker valve - this solved the problem of weak flush water flow and water backing up into the bowl. One thing I still notice is that about 3/4 of the way down in the dry mode, the pump gets hard to push and feels spongy. I believe through reading the archives that I'm pushing air behind the column of water going into the holding tank and since the discharge hose runs uphill into the tank, it may just be the water column pressure (or maybe its just something unique to Crittendens) but it still has me worried that something isn't quite right. I've checked the vent and there are no problems when sucking out the holding tank. I just finished ripping out all the old original stinking sanitation hose and replacing with PVC. If I'm correct about the theory of water columm pressure I'll just leave the old head alone, if not, I'll replace it too and be done with anymore nagging sewage problems.
How old is the toilet, Ken?
You said "one of the POs installed it"...got any idea of when that was? 'Cuz the Headmate is a "budget" compact toilet that has an average lifespan of no more than about 7-10 years...less if it isn't rebuilt every 3-5 years...'cuz not only do seals and o-rings wear out, but over time the inside of the pump cylinder also becomes so worn and out of round that rebuilding won't do much good any more. So if your toilet is more than 5-6 years old, your problem is, the pump just doesn't have enough "oomph" left in it to push bowl contents uphill any more. In fact, if the seals and o-rings were actually sealing, the "column of air" would actually help push the bowl contents uphill...but if they can't seal any more, there is no column of air. But, even if your toilet is relatively new, it's unlikely that any of the "budget" compact toilets would be able to move bowl contents uphill all the way to the tank. It shouldn't BE uphill all the way...When you replumbed it, you should have put a loop (not vented, just an arch) in the head discharge line as close to the toilet as possible, so that bowl contents would only have to go uphill for a short distance, then downhill the rest of the way into the tank. So IMO the only good solution: a new toilet that can move the bowl contents all the way to the tank...and that would be the Raritan PH II. It has a pump that's twice as efficient as any other manual toilet in its price range and will last at least 20 years if it's just kept lubricated and rebuilt every 5-6 years. What makes the PH II so much more efficient? The diameter of the piston of the PHII is 2 1/2 inches. The diameter of the piston of most other manual toilets is 1 3/4". When you calculate the cubic inch capacity (displacement) of the PHII with a 2 1/2" diameter piston, it comes out to a little over 12 cubic inches. If you do the same calculation for a pump with a 1 3/4" diameter piston, with the same 2 1/2" stroke, the cubic inch capacity is only 6 cubic inches. So the PHII will pump twice as much per stroke, as any other toilet in its class. The lever pump handle also requires much less effort to pump it than a "bicycle pump." So unless your tank is more than about 6' from the toilet, a PH II would have no problem moving your bowl contents uphill all the way into your tank in the dry mode.
You said "one of the POs installed it"...got any idea of when that was? 'Cuz the Headmate is a "budget" compact toilet that has an average lifespan of no more than about 7-10 years...less if it isn't rebuilt every 3-5 years...'cuz not only do seals and o-rings wear out, but over time the inside of the pump cylinder also becomes so worn and out of round that rebuilding won't do much good any more. So if your toilet is more than 5-6 years old, your problem is, the pump just doesn't have enough "oomph" left in it to push bowl contents uphill any more. In fact, if the seals and o-rings were actually sealing, the "column of air" would actually help push the bowl contents uphill...but if they can't seal any more, there is no column of air. But, even if your toilet is relatively new, it's unlikely that any of the "budget" compact toilets would be able to move bowl contents uphill all the way to the tank. It shouldn't BE uphill all the way...When you replumbed it, you should have put a loop (not vented, just an arch) in the head discharge line as close to the toilet as possible, so that bowl contents would only have to go uphill for a short distance, then downhill the rest of the way into the tank. So IMO the only good solution: a new toilet that can move the bowl contents all the way to the tank...and that would be the Raritan PH II. It has a pump that's twice as efficient as any other manual toilet in its price range and will last at least 20 years if it's just kept lubricated and rebuilt every 5-6 years. What makes the PH II so much more efficient? The diameter of the piston of the PHII is 2 1/2 inches. The diameter of the piston of most other manual toilets is 1 3/4". When you calculate the cubic inch capacity (displacement) of the PHII with a 2 1/2" diameter piston, it comes out to a little over 12 cubic inches. If you do the same calculation for a pump with a 1 3/4" diameter piston, with the same 2 1/2" stroke, the cubic inch capacity is only 6 cubic inches. So the PHII will pump twice as much per stroke, as any other toilet in its class. The lever pump handle also requires much less effort to pump it than a "bicycle pump." So unless your tank is more than about 6' from the toilet, a PH II would have no problem moving your bowl contents uphill all the way into your tank in the dry mode.
Thanks Peggy!
Based on what you're telling me, I think I will just replace the toilet with a PH II and be done with it. I started down this direction this last summer but didn't want to tackle it while our short sailing season was in session - so I took the rebuild route. Not sure how old the toilet is but guessing as to the condition I would say probably at least 6-7 years old. There wasn't a loop in the discharge but I'm not sure if this was by design or if one of the owners re-routed it(it was the only hose that was not OE). I'm guessing by design since there isn't much room between the toilet and the hose chase. The run is actually pretty flat until it reaches the tank, then it runs approximately 1' or so uphill. Don't know if this makes any difference? Again, thanks for your quick response and time out to answer on this New Years Eve!
Based on what you're telling me, I think I will just replace the toilet with a PH II and be done with it. I started down this direction this last summer but didn't want to tackle it while our short sailing season was in session - so I took the rebuild route. Not sure how old the toilet is but guessing as to the condition I would say probably at least 6-7 years old. There wasn't a loop in the discharge but I'm not sure if this was by design or if one of the owners re-routed it(it was the only hose that was not OE). I'm guessing by design since there isn't much room between the toilet and the hose chase. The run is actually pretty flat until it reaches the tank, then it runs approximately 1' or so uphill. Don't know if this makes any difference? Again, thanks for your quick response and time out to answer on this New Years Eve!
2 Y valves?
I am not aware of a second Y valve. There is one I know of under the vee berth. When I am out more that 25 miles I turnit and I am able to pump out the tank. Is there another valve under the vee berth that I have not found?
I am not aware of a second Y valve. There is one I know of under the vee berth. When I am out more that 25 miles I turnit and I am able to pump out the tank. Is there another valve under the vee berth that I have not found?
After Further inspection
I have crawled down to my access door with a flashlight in hand and have determined I have no Y valves. All I have is a tee. I see no valves of any sort.
I have crawled down to my access door with a flashlight in hand and have determined I have no Y valves. All I have is a tee. I see no valves of any sort.
Capt. Paul
What happened with "Magic Wind" from Ft Myers? How did Margaritaville thread get mixed into this discussion? Anybody know?
What happened with "Magic Wind" from Ft Myers? How did Margaritaville thread get mixed into this discussion? Anybody know?
Sometime Things get on a Roll...
Chuck, not sure, but I'm getting a lot out of it along the path. Margaritaville, Yep I've got two. One under the head and one under the vanity. The one under the the head goes to the other Y valve and the macerator. The second one goes to the sea and the tank. It's a screwy thing, but that puts two real hang up places that are hard to get at. But I'm on it. I've checked the vent, it's clear and in the morning, I go pump out and start taking the hoses apart one at a time to find the clog. It has to be against one of the Y valves, because the last time I took the hoses apart they were in good shape, but the Y valves have a smaller diameter hole for stuff to go through. That's my guess and I should know shortly. I'm going to start at the head side and work my way through the system. After the clog is clear, I'll rebuild the head and then do the scheduled maintenance thing. I'm not going through this again. I hope. Of course I can't lead them by the hand either. Capt. Paul s/v Magic Wind
Chuck, not sure, but I'm getting a lot out of it along the path. Margaritaville, Yep I've got two. One under the head and one under the vanity. The one under the the head goes to the other Y valve and the macerator. The second one goes to the sea and the tank. It's a screwy thing, but that puts two real hang up places that are hard to get at. But I'm on it. I've checked the vent, it's clear and in the morning, I go pump out and start taking the hoses apart one at a time to find the clog. It has to be against one of the Y valves, because the last time I took the hoses apart they were in good shape, but the Y valves have a smaller diameter hole for stuff to go through. That's my guess and I should know shortly. I'm going to start at the head side and work my way through the system. After the clog is clear, I'll rebuild the head and then do the scheduled maintenance thing. I'm not going through this again. I hope. Of course I can't lead them by the hand either. Capt. Paul s/v Magic Wind
Ahhhh... Flushing Again!
I want to thank everyone for their support on this site. I took all the hoses off and checked all the connections. The clog was against the Y valve directly under the head itself. A nice nest of about a half pound of Kleenex pushed up against a half closed Y valve. It was stiff, so I put in a new one and all is well... Again. Picked up a pump rebuild kit and will do that projet next week when I have the time to take it apart and put the puzzle together. That's a new project for me, so I'll take it slow and easy. Everyone I've talked to says it's not that hard, but when it's your first time, I shoot photos as I go along and refer to them when needed putting it back together. I also found that the overboard manual pump is shot, so I'll be replacing that and then all should be up to snuff. Once again. Thanks for all the help, suggestions and pointers. I owe ya... Capt. Paul s/v Magic Wind
I want to thank everyone for their support on this site. I took all the hoses off and checked all the connections. The clog was against the Y valve directly under the head itself. A nice nest of about a half pound of Kleenex pushed up against a half closed Y valve. It was stiff, so I put in a new one and all is well... Again. Picked up a pump rebuild kit and will do that projet next week when I have the time to take it apart and put the puzzle together. That's a new project for me, so I'll take it slow and easy. Everyone I've talked to says it's not that hard, but when it's your first time, I shoot photos as I go along and refer to them when needed putting it back together. I also found that the overboard manual pump is shot, so I'll be replacing that and then all should be up to snuff. Once again. Thanks for all the help, suggestions and pointers. I owe ya... Capt. Paul s/v Magic Wind
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