Head issues

[bodaflack]

I recently purchased a Pearson 34-2 with a Groco HF and almost immediately had issues. The surveyor used the head and said everything was fine. When we went on the maiden voyage, the first part of the first day everything was fine, but when we got underway and someone tried to use the head in the afternoon after sailing in pretty rough seas, the manual pump handle was very pressurized. It was extremely difficult to pump in either the wet or dry setting.

We thought there might be a venting issue and pressure built up in the tank so it only could be used a couple of times before it was too pressurized, but a pump out guy came and opened our waste disposal deck fitting and said that there wasn't pressure there so there wouldn't be elsewhere. We scrubbed the outside hull vent fitting and seemed clear. When we push down on the handle slowly with force, the raw water comes in and I think I found the raw water thru-hull in the engine compartment forward of the engine. It is open. I tried pumping with it closed in bot wet and dry. Still the same pressure.

Poured vinegar down the toilet and did the dry pump until the bowl was empty. Came back the next day and the bowl was half full. This makes me think there is a joker valve problem. Maybe somehow it inverted? When I push down with force and slowly on the pump in either the wet or dry setting, it seems that the raw water hose that connects to the back of the bowl gargles and air is being sent through? The line is clear and if I am pumping in the dry setting that line still has water in it. Also, when I am pushing down in either wet or dry, there is a small hissing noise and slight leak at the bottom of the head in the waste pipe fitting to the holding tank hose.

Maybe a joker valve and cam assembly problem? I am at a loss.

Seems like a brand new toilet is the same price as a repair kit? Just buy a new toilet?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[MikeHoncho]

I’d check the joker valve for obstructions before anything

 

[Rick D]

I had the exact thing happen when I took delivery of my boat after commissioning. It turned out the tank was full. Evidently, the workers used the head on the boat while they were re-commissioning it and the PO probably didn't pump out before delivering it to the dealer. Easy check...take the deck cap off and try it. Have fun and congratulations on your new boat.

 

[shemandr]

There wouldn't have to be pressure in the tank when the pump out guy opens the deck fitting to have a clog in the vent line. The pressure could slowly leak through the vent line. After replacing the joker valve try to clean out or replace the vent hose.

 

[bodaflack]

Thanks all. Will get out there today and try to fix it.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

This may help you clear any vent blockage. I'd also flush a little veggie oil--no more than a tablespoon!-- down the toilet to provide a little lubrication for the pump.

The two most common locations for a vent blockage are the vent thru-hull and the other end of the vent line--that end of the hose and the vent fitting on the tank. Start by cleaning out the thru-hull...use a screwdriver blade, ice pick--whatever works. If that doesn't result in a spew out the vent, you'll need to relieve the pressure before removing the vent line from the tank to clean them out...so open the deck pumpout fitting VERY CAREFULLY with a hose at the ready. Be sure you're UPwind of it! Scrape out that end of the vent line and the vent fitting on the tank...reconnect the vent line.

If there's a filter in the vent line, remove it...once a filter gets wet--which can happen when a tank is overfilled or even due to heeling--the charcoal swells and blocks the vent...one of the reasons why vent filters aren't recommended for use on most sailboats.
I'm guessing that you're fairly new at dealing with marine toilets and holding tanks. The title of my book (see link in my signature, just click on the title) The title (my publisher's idea) is a bit misleading...'cuz although it does deal with every source of odor on a boat and how to cure, or better yet PREVENT 'em, it's actually a comprehensive "marine toilets and sanitation systems 101" manual that explains the laws, describes all the types of systems and how they work, and will help you learn how to operate and maintain your system to prevent 99% of problems instead of having to cure 'em. 'Cuz you get to do any preventive maintenance on your terms when it's convenient...the need to cure a problem never happens when it is! And I'm always glad to answer any questions it doesn't.

--Peggie

 

[bodaflack]

This may help you clear any vent blockage. I'd also flush a little veggie oil--no more than a tablespoon!-- down the toilet to provide a little lubrication for the pump.

The two most common locations for a vent blockage are the vent thru-hull and the other end of the vent line--that end of the hose and the vent fitting on the tank. Start by cleaning out the thru-hull...use a screwdriver blade, ice pick--whatever works. If that doesn't result in a spew out the vent, you'll need to relieve the pressure before removing the vent line from the tank to clean them out...so open the deck pumpout fitting VERY CAREFULLY with a hose at the ready. Be sure you're UPwind of it! Scrape out that end of the vent line and the vent fitting on the tank...reconnect the vent line.

If there's a filter in the vent line, remove it...once a filter gets wet--which can happen when a tank is overfilled or even due to heeling--the charcoal swells and blocks the vent...one of the reasons why vent filters aren't recommended for use on most sailboats.
I'm guessing that you're fairly new at dealing with marine toilets and holding tanks. The title of my book (see link in my signature, just click on the title) The title (my publisher's idea) is a bit misleading...'cuz although it does deal with every source of odor on a boat and how to cure, or better yet PREVENT 'em, it's actually a comprehensive "marine toilets and sanitation systems 101" manual that explains the laws, describes all the types of systems and how they work, and will help you learn how to operate and maintain your system to prevent 99% of problems instead of having to cure 'em. 'Cuz you get to do any preventive maintenance on your terms when it's convenient...the need to cure a problem never happens when it is! And I'm always glad to answer any questions it doesn't.

--Peggie

Thanks for the suggestions. We opened up the pumpout vent and there wasn't pressure. We had the tank pumped out as well.

The vent line to the tank isn't accessible as far as I can tell. We cleaned the through hull outside part with a toothbrush and there didn't seem to be backup. The holding tank is at the bottom of the lazarette under a shelf made of plywood that the hot water heater and A/C is bolted onto the top. I am not sure how I am going to clean the holding tank vent line. I found the line and moved it around and it seems to be loose.

There are conflicting through hull locations for the head. On the blueprint diagram the head intake is by the engine intake aft of the engine below the aft berth. In the through hull diagram that is a head discharge (9).

On the through hull diagram the intake is forward of the engine (12) in the engine compartment which I believe is the correct one. So then why would the boat need two head discharges (9, 20)?

In the Pearson 34-2 manual in the description the head intake is under the settee which we know is wrong because there isn't a holding tank in the v-berth and they must of copied this section from a different model boat.

I took pictures of the stuffing box area under the aft berth

http://imgur.com/a/wJFHQ9v

. There seems to be many more through hulls than the diagram would suggest. I think one is for the A/C unit in the lazarette?

What is really getting me about the head issue is that while the tank is back filling when it is bone dry the day before (joker value issue), it takes a lot of force to push the pump down when there is water in the bowl. If slowly pump out the water in the bowl on the dry setting and the bowl becomes empty there is no more back pressure and the pump suction and assembly seem smooth. So I don't think it is an old dry pump. (surveyor used it with no issue and our first use was with no issue). We poured vinegar down the toilet so I would assume we would have broken anything up.

Here is a video trying to pump the head.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

In the Pearson 34-2 manual in the description the head intake is under the settee which we know is wrong because there isn't a holding tank in the v-berth and they must of copied this section from a different model boat.

The head intake doesn't have anything to do with the holding tank...the line from the intake thru-hull has to go to the toilet. And if the toilet is plumbed to discharge directly overboard, putting the toilet intake thru-hull far forward is a good idea unless that puts it a lot farther from the toilet than it should be, 'cuz it prevents the toilet pump from pulling in the discharged material while pumping it overboard via a thru-hull further aft.

The vent line to the tank isn't accessible as far as I can tell. We cleaned the through hull outside part with a toothbrush and there didn't seem to be backup. The holding tank is at the bottom of the lazarette under a shelf made of plywood that the hot water heater and A/C is bolted onto the top. I am not sure how I am going to clean the holding tank vent line. I found the line and moved it around and it seems to be loose.

If you can access the vent thru-hull from the inside of the hull, replace it with an open bulkhead or "mushroom" thru-hull that'll allow you to put a hose nozzle against to backflush the vent line. (see attached photo)

Toilet hard to pump
Back pressure in the system due to a blocked tank vent is the most common reason toilets become hard to pump... but you seem to have eliminated that. There may be a blockage in the toilet discharge line (any chance that somebody flushed a wet wipe? ' cuz that'll do it!) or a kink in the discharge line. Or the problem may be in the toilet...just 'cuz it worked ok during the survey doesn't rule out a failure since. It could be a jammed wet/dry cam...or any of several other failures in the pump. How old is the toilet? And when, if ever, was the last time it was rebuilt?

Water rising in the bowl
But unless the tank is full to overflowing, what's running back to the bowl can't be coming from the tank because the inlet fitting is at the top of tank, and waste can't jump. So hard to pump and water rising in the bowl have to be two separate issues....and there are two possible sources: 1. material in the toilet discharge line that hasn't made it INTO the tank (replacing the joker valve won't fix that) which may be due to a blockage in the vent line, a kink in the toilet discharge line or a blockage in the toilet discharge line. 2. the toilet intake line. From what I could see of the toilet in your video, there doesn't appear to be a vented loop in the toilet intake, so there's nothing to prevent water from outside the boat from seeking its own level inside the boat via the toilet. Groco's toilet installation instructions don't include diagragms that show the correct location for vented loops, but it's same for all manual toilets and the Jabsco owners manual does ...see Figure 1 on the right side of page 3 Jabsco Manual Twist & Lock owners manual If you only flush into the tank, you only need an INTAKE vented loop...you don't need one in the discharge line.

You're welcome to send me a PM If you'd like some one-on-one help to solve these problems.
--Peggie

 

[bodaflack]

Bought a joker valve and got all ready to replace and we came back to the boat and the bowl was filled part way up with a blue cemically liquid. Not sure if that helps a diagnosis. I dont think we put anything down other than vinegar.

http://imgur.com/a/U9SOjdG

 

[Ron20324]

Bought a joker valve and got all ready to replace and we came back to the boat and the bowl was filled part way up with a blue cemically liquid. Not sure if that helps a diagnosis. I dont think we put anything down other than vinegar.

http://imgur.com/a/U9SOjdG

Sounds like Ty-D-Bowl blue?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

A few questions: Was the flush water intake thru-hull open or closed? If closed, have you traced the intake line to find out whether a PO installed a chemical cartridge in it (they enjoyed brief popularity--and are still available-- as a solution to sea water odor in the toilet)? You don't flush anything but vinegar...what do you use in the tank and how do you put it into the tank?

--Peggie

 

[bodaflack]

Sounds like Ty-D-Bowl blue?

Not sure what that is


We took off the top screw top of the holding tank and there wasn't much at all in there. We tried to pump both wet and dry with it off and still a lot of pressure. Nothing changed.

We then disassembled the head and checked the bottom gasket and that looked fine i guess. Then we poured water in the bowl to make sure there wasn't blockage in the pipe under the bowl. Water flowed right through. (Luckily we have a sump pump in the head area).

We attached the gasket back to the bottom of the pump (white plastic side up). We then poured water in the bowl and it came out the other side easily on the dry setting and wet. Water came out through the gasket easily toward where the joker valve should have been connected. Is this normal?

We then took out and inspected the joker valve, looked fine but we replaced with the brand new one anyway. Put it all back together and of course it is leaking now when we try to pump.

We made sure it is in the dry setting and the raw water through hull is shut i think.

Don't know what else to do.

We tried to follow the sanitation hose out but there is a section we can't see so I guess there could be a kink in that section? I am really at a loss. Anyone know someone I can contact in New England US?

 

[Greg678]

Thanks for the suggestions. We opened up the pumpout vent and there wasn't pressure. We had the tank pumped out as well.

The vent line to the tank isn't accessible as far as I can tell. We cleaned the through hull outside part with a toothbrush and there didn't seem to be backup. The holding tank is at the bottom of the lazarette under a shelf made of plywood that the hot water heater and A/C is bolted onto the top. I am not sure how I am going to clean the holding tank vent line. I found the line and moved it around and it seems to be loose.

There are conflicting through hull locations for the head. On the blueprint diagram the head intake is by the engine intake aft of the engine below the aft berth. In the through hull diagram that is a head discharge (9).

On the through hull diagram the intake is forward of the engine (12) in the engine compartment which I believe is the correct one. So then why would the boat need two head discharges (9, 20)?

In the Pearson 34-2 manual in the description the head intake is under the settee which we know is wrong because there isn't a holding tank in the v-berth and they must of copied this section from a different model boat.

I took pictures of the stuffing box area under the aft berth

http://imgur.com/a/wJFHQ9v

. There seems to be many more through hulls than the diagram would suggest. I think one is for the A/C unit in the lazarette?

What is really getting me about the head issue is that while the tank is back filling when it is bone dry the day before (joker value issue), it takes a lot of force to push the pump down when there is water in the bowl. If slowly pump out the water in the bowl on the dry setting and the bowl becomes empty there is no more back pressure and the pump suction and assembly seem smooth. So I don't think it is an old dry pump. (surveyor used it with no issue and our first use was with no issue). We poured vinegar down the toilet so I would assume we would have broken anything up.

Here is a video trying to pump the head.
View attachment 182566View attachment 182567
View attachment 182564View attachment 182565

Thanks for posting these diagrams. Very helpful to me. The two head discharges (9, 20) represent the sink (9) and the toilet (20). On my 34-2 the head intake is directly forward of the engine and is easily accessed by removing the stairs and opening the engine compartment from the salon.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

After re-rereading this entire thread, it occurs to me to wonder if you've ever lubricated the toilet... If not, that would explain why it's hard to pump. Try flushing a tablespoon--just ONE!-- of vegetable oil..any brand to see if that helps. If it does, you'll need to do that every few weeks, but there's a better way to lube a manual toilet that only has to be done annually as part of spring recommissioning.

It also occurs to me to wonder if you've ever removed any section of the toilet discharge line to check inside for sea water mineral buildup. That can reduce the diameter of a 1.5" hose to less than 1/2", which would definitely create back pressure when the toilet is pumped. I'd also check for any build up in the y-valve.

Either one of those can explain why a manual toilet is hard to pump...A combination of no lubrication and mineral buildup could make flushing the toilet all but impossible.

--Peggie