Havre De Grace
- Thread starter Manny
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It does get thin enough for walking on the flats
I have friends with a couple of Sunfish that have sailed to HdG from Red Point and run aground on the way back and had to get out and walk for a couple of miles. As to algea blooms. they are first of all quite rare. The algea is very small, only slightly larger than smoke or mushroom spores if you have ever kicked a puffball mushroom. They won't harm an engine but the heat from the engine won't do them any good. With the link you can look at the entire route you would take from the Delaware R. to the bay.
I have friends with a couple of Sunfish that have sailed to HdG from Red Point and run aground on the way back and had to get out and walk for a couple of miles. As to algea blooms. they are first of all quite rare. The algea is very small, only slightly larger than smoke or mushroom spores if you have ever kicked a puffball mushroom. They won't harm an engine but the heat from the engine won't do them any good. With the link you can look at the entire route you would take from the Delaware R. to the bay.
Hi Manny,
Let me jump in here with some thoughts and advice I've given to many people. I also live in PA (western Chester County). While Havre de Grace is a very nice area, I drive right through it to get to my boat on Middle River. It adds 1/2 hr to my drive but in my opinion, it's worth it. The problem I have with HdG is that long narrow channel out to the bay. That will usually add 45-60 minutes of motoring on either end of your weekend. Rich brought up the other issue with the extreme northern end of the bay, destination options. Since my drive is 1.5 hrs, we don't do any "day sails", we are there for the weekend or longer. Our typical weekend is to sail to an anchorage (or marina) to spend Sat. evening and sail home on Sun. If you are at the northern end, your choice is to sail south. This limits your overnight options somewhat. From Middle River I can sail north, east or south. I have many anchoring options to choose from and can easily make Baltimore, Annapolis or St. Michaels in a day sail. If you do alot of day sails or race, the northern end may be for you. Obviously, it is closer and quicker to drive to. There is room to sail outside of HdG and on the Bohemia River but if you want to head out for the weekend you face the 2 big (IMHO) issues Rich & I have mentioned. I considered Tidewater when I bought my last boat there, it was very expensive. There are other, less expensive options on the other side of the Susquanna, where Ross is. From your location I'd consider something on the eastern shore. Look at Worton Creek, Fairlee Creek ($$$$ & loud) Tolchester Marina (great Tiki Bar for sunsets) or one of the many marinas in Rock Hall. Yes, you'll drive a bit further but you will be raising your sails just a few minutes from your slip and you'll have many destination options to choose from. Tom s/v Orion's Child
Let me jump in here with some thoughts and advice I've given to many people. I also live in PA (western Chester County). While Havre de Grace is a very nice area, I drive right through it to get to my boat on Middle River. It adds 1/2 hr to my drive but in my opinion, it's worth it. The problem I have with HdG is that long narrow channel out to the bay. That will usually add 45-60 minutes of motoring on either end of your weekend. Rich brought up the other issue with the extreme northern end of the bay, destination options. Since my drive is 1.5 hrs, we don't do any "day sails", we are there for the weekend or longer. Our typical weekend is to sail to an anchorage (or marina) to spend Sat. evening and sail home on Sun. If you are at the northern end, your choice is to sail south. This limits your overnight options somewhat. From Middle River I can sail north, east or south. I have many anchoring options to choose from and can easily make Baltimore, Annapolis or St. Michaels in a day sail. If you do alot of day sails or race, the northern end may be for you. Obviously, it is closer and quicker to drive to. There is room to sail outside of HdG and on the Bohemia River but if you want to head out for the weekend you face the 2 big (IMHO) issues Rich & I have mentioned. I considered Tidewater when I bought my last boat there, it was very expensive. There are other, less expensive options on the other side of the Susquanna, where Ross is. From your location I'd consider something on the eastern shore. Look at Worton Creek, Fairlee Creek ($$$$ & loud) Tolchester Marina (great Tiki Bar for sunsets) or one of the many marinas in Rock Hall. Yes, you'll drive a bit further but you will be raising your sails just a few minutes from your slip and you'll have many destination options to choose from. Tom s/v Orion's Child
I think that this discussion has hi lighted
the differing life styles and sailing expectations of the respondants. This is my conclusion; if you sail to get away from the madding crowd then the upper bay will suit you. There are enough places to anchor that are quiet and rarely crowded.(more than 5-6 boats) On the other hand if sailing is also a social event then the areas around Rock Hall, Middle River, Fairlee Creek, Tolchester will be much more appealing. The reasons that you hear are more or less valid. There is a long channel from HdG to the bay but it isn't very narrow and is straight but for one turn at Fishing Battery. The boat population at Middle river is very much greater than on the Susquehanna. Study the charts and the maps and select an area that will suit your lifestyle. Owens has a very laid back casual attitude, Tidewater is a bit more trendy, bigger and newer boats. The other marinas I can't say about because I haven't been to visit them.
the differing life styles and sailing expectations of the respondants. This is my conclusion; if you sail to get away from the madding crowd then the upper bay will suit you. There are enough places to anchor that are quiet and rarely crowded.(more than 5-6 boats) On the other hand if sailing is also a social event then the areas around Rock Hall, Middle River, Fairlee Creek, Tolchester will be much more appealing. The reasons that you hear are more or less valid. There is a long channel from HdG to the bay but it isn't very narrow and is straight but for one turn at Fishing Battery. The boat population at Middle river is very much greater than on the Susquehanna. Study the charts and the maps and select an area that will suit your lifestyle. Owens has a very laid back casual attitude, Tidewater is a bit more trendy, bigger and newer boats. The other marinas I can't say about because I haven't been to visit them.
Manny hello
I can only tell you about our experience. I docked near you on Dredge Harbor, and had the same problem you described tacking every two minutes, also the railroad bridge at Delaire was an issue for us. We spent our vacation time sailing or motoring the boat to the Chesapeake each year 9hrs to Chesapeake City, not complaining as this was part of our adventure. We finally came to realize we needed to keep the boat on the Chesapeake to get more bang out of our time. It depends what you are looking for Havre de Grace is a wonderfully historic town, and everything is in walking distance of Tidewater Marina. There are many great points of view that have been brought out in this post, and living it I respect them. We settled on a slip on the Bohemia River, and have not regretted it, as for motoring once clearing the marina you sail. From the Bohemia Chesapeake City is within driving distance, and has all amenities. I live in Merchantville, NJ and it takes me about 1hr 20 minutes to get to the marina. Let me know if I can help in any way, including a boat ride down the Delaware. Good luck in your decision, John s/v Sanctuary II
I can only tell you about our experience. I docked near you on Dredge Harbor, and had the same problem you described tacking every two minutes, also the railroad bridge at Delaire was an issue for us. We spent our vacation time sailing or motoring the boat to the Chesapeake each year 9hrs to Chesapeake City, not complaining as this was part of our adventure. We finally came to realize we needed to keep the boat on the Chesapeake to get more bang out of our time. It depends what you are looking for Havre de Grace is a wonderfully historic town, and everything is in walking distance of Tidewater Marina. There are many great points of view that have been brought out in this post, and living it I respect them. We settled on a slip on the Bohemia River, and have not regretted it, as for motoring once clearing the marina you sail. From the Bohemia Chesapeake City is within driving distance, and has all amenities. I live in Merchantville, NJ and it takes me about 1hr 20 minutes to get to the marina. Let me know if I can help in any way, including a boat ride down the Delaware. Good luck in your decision, John s/v Sanctuary II
Hello John
Are you out of Winters? I used to sail my SJ-21 out of there. Very nice for a small boat but NO WHERE for a cruiser. have you consider the NJ shore. The Barnaget bay is the best place in the area. It is protected and has plenty of deep water. It is a couple of miles wide so you get larger tacks. Best of all we have plenty of wind all year long. For trips you can sail to NYC, Cape May or AC. The river is great but the bay is better....
Are you out of Winters? I used to sail my SJ-21 out of there. Very nice for a small boat but NO WHERE for a cruiser. have you consider the NJ shore. The Barnaget bay is the best place in the area. It is protected and has plenty of deep water. It is a couple of miles wide so you get larger tacks. Best of all we have plenty of wind all year long. For trips you can sail to NYC, Cape May or AC. The river is great but the bay is better....
Depends on the type of sailing you do
Manny, we have been sailing out of HdG for over 6 years now. When we first started out and doing mainly day sails and anchoring for lunch/dinner, the HdG area is fine. We have many friends that keep their boats there and to them, that is all they want and need. They typically day sail and going out into the "big" bay really isn't what they want. For us, if we just want to sail for a couple of hours, the HdG area is fine. Depending on winds, you will need to tack every 30 mins or so. Plenty of water in the basin to play around in and many marks to race around. If we want to enjoy a week-end, we make the run down the channel. It does take about 35-45 minutes and you can sail it, but watch out for the barges and powerboats. Depending on the wind, it might take many tacks to get out. Lets put it this way, when I took my ASA training, they had us sail down the channel because it was great practice on learning to tack and jibe. I think you get the picture. After all of these years, we have decided to move south to middle river. For us, it is only about 10 mins more of a drive and saves me about 4 hrs of motoring. Our sailing club is spread out across the northern bay (Rockhall and Rock creek north), but we miss out on too many Magathy and Annapolis week-ends because of where we are. Unless I have a three day week-end, we limit our week-end trips to Worton, Still Pond or Sassafras. All very doable from HDG. I know many folks in our sailing club that ALL started in Tidewater, and most have moved. Most of the PA and DE folks are on the eastern shore. Seems like sassafras, wortons and tolchester are their favorite spots. Tolchester is probably the quickest to be out of the marina and sailing the bay. So, if you thing HdG is for you, the folks at tidewater are great. We are currently at the marina next door (Log Pond) and it is a great location. The depth can be an issue depending on slip, but the floating docks are fantastic, price is very good and best of all, Tidewater's service dept treats you as if you are in their marina....service calls, pick-up/delivery for storage, etc. Tim
Manny, we have been sailing out of HdG for over 6 years now. When we first started out and doing mainly day sails and anchoring for lunch/dinner, the HdG area is fine. We have many friends that keep their boats there and to them, that is all they want and need. They typically day sail and going out into the "big" bay really isn't what they want. For us, if we just want to sail for a couple of hours, the HdG area is fine. Depending on winds, you will need to tack every 30 mins or so. Plenty of water in the basin to play around in and many marks to race around. If we want to enjoy a week-end, we make the run down the channel. It does take about 35-45 minutes and you can sail it, but watch out for the barges and powerboats. Depending on the wind, it might take many tacks to get out. Lets put it this way, when I took my ASA training, they had us sail down the channel because it was great practice on learning to tack and jibe. I think you get the picture. After all of these years, we have decided to move south to middle river. For us, it is only about 10 mins more of a drive and saves me about 4 hrs of motoring. Our sailing club is spread out across the northern bay (Rockhall and Rock creek north), but we miss out on too many Magathy and Annapolis week-ends because of where we are. Unless I have a three day week-end, we limit our week-end trips to Worton, Still Pond or Sassafras. All very doable from HDG. I know many folks in our sailing club that ALL started in Tidewater, and most have moved. Most of the PA and DE folks are on the eastern shore. Seems like sassafras, wortons and tolchester are their favorite spots. Tolchester is probably the quickest to be out of the marina and sailing the bay. So, if you thing HdG is for you, the folks at tidewater are great. We are currently at the marina next door (Log Pond) and it is a great location. The depth can be an issue depending on slip, but the floating docks are fantastic, price is very good and best of all, Tidewater's service dept treats you as if you are in their marina....service calls, pick-up/delivery for storage, etc. Tim
Upper Bay Locations
We kept a boat at Owens Marina for over 10 years. The dredged channel from Havre de Grace to the deep water is about 5 miles long. We always sailed the full length of it if there was enough wind to move the boat. It is a delghtful reach both ways when the wind is from the east. If you use a depth finder (essential when you sail the upper Bay) you can follow the original Susquehanna River channel to the Northeast area. I found it easier to get from the Havre de Grace area to the upper Bay than from the Northeast area. There was usually a good breeze beginning shortly after dark and continuing most of the night which made Friday night departures practical. A strong north wind will push the water down the Bay and leave the Susquehanna flats totally exposed. Normal depth is 2-3 feet over the flats. We lived in the Port Deposit area, about 12 minutes from the marina; travel time was not a significant concern. I enjoyed exploring the rivers and coves of the upper Bay. Suggest towing or carrying a dinghy for exploring upper portions of shallow creeks and coves. Charts are essential for navigation as many of the deeper channels run very close to one shore or the other and have strong currents when the tide is flowing. Tidal range was seldom over two feet. However, heavy rainfall, snow melt, etc. can raise the water level in the Susquehanna significantly and ice jams in the winter are an added hazard. We kept the boat in the water year-round and had to shovel snow off periodically. Owens used a water circulating system to prevent ice from forming around the boats that were left in the water. Sailing season was generally from early April to mid-November
We kept a boat at Owens Marina for over 10 years. The dredged channel from Havre de Grace to the deep water is about 5 miles long. We always sailed the full length of it if there was enough wind to move the boat. It is a delghtful reach both ways when the wind is from the east. If you use a depth finder (essential when you sail the upper Bay) you can follow the original Susquehanna River channel to the Northeast area. I found it easier to get from the Havre de Grace area to the upper Bay than from the Northeast area. There was usually a good breeze beginning shortly after dark and continuing most of the night which made Friday night departures practical. A strong north wind will push the water down the Bay and leave the Susquehanna flats totally exposed. Normal depth is 2-3 feet over the flats. We lived in the Port Deposit area, about 12 minutes from the marina; travel time was not a significant concern. I enjoyed exploring the rivers and coves of the upper Bay. Suggest towing or carrying a dinghy for exploring upper portions of shallow creeks and coves. Charts are essential for navigation as many of the deeper channels run very close to one shore or the other and have strong currents when the tide is flowing. Tidal range was seldom over two feet. However, heavy rainfall, snow melt, etc. can raise the water level in the Susquehanna significantly and ice jams in the winter are an added hazard. We kept the boat in the water year-round and had to shovel snow off periodically. Owens used a water circulating system to prevent ice from forming around the boats that were left in the water. Sailing season was generally from early April to mid-November
It all depends
on what you like most -- destination cruising or shortest distance to your boat. I have been on the upper bay now for nine years. I have berthed Explorer at Owens, Perryville Yacht Club, and Tidewater. Havre de Grace is a charming small town, with many good restaurants and shops. There are several marinas to choose from, but Tidewater is unquestionably the nicest one, and the most expensive. On the other side of the river (technically, I believe the Susquehanna River ends and the Chesapeake Bay begins at Havre de Grace), Perryville has two marinas, but you need to get under the Amtrak bridge to get there (the charts show this as a swing bridge, but the local word is that you have to pay Amtrak to open it -- otherwise, your mast needs to be less than 50'). Owens has a pool, but most of its slips do not have shore power. Owens is also very shallow in places, and even in my next-to-the end slip, I can get hung up at low tide. A little farther north is Port Deposit, which appears to have one marina, although I have heard it is part of a condo complex. The town is very quaint and at least worth a visit. As the many other posters here have pointed out, there is a trade-off between more driving time if you keep your boat lower in the bay, versus less driving time for the upper bay. The link I've inserted is to the website for a local sailing school which gives cruising destinations and travel time from Havre de Grace. I-95 can get very congested around the Delaware tolls and the Churchman's area where SR1 (shore traffic) merges. But, there are many alternate routes. US1 is the easiest way to travel from the MD border to Kennett Square/West Chester, not I-95. Even if you decide to use I-95, at least cross the Susquehanna on US40 using the Thomas J. Hatem Memorial Bridge. The toll on this bridge is the same as on I-95, but you can buy an annual bridge sticker for the cost of a single toll ($5). The sticker is only valid on the Hatem bridge. As for water quality, I was unaware there was a problem with "toxic algae". If this is the thick green "pea soup" you see in places, I don't see how it would affect sailing or swimming, as the pea soup usually congeals in shallows or stagnant areas. I have always felt the water is better in the upper bay for swimming, especially when I hear stories about sea nettles and jellyfish in the more brackish middle bay. Half the time I go out on my boat, I end up anchoring out on the flats (the large, shallow expanse abeam Havre de Grace) and just chilling out. It's a great place to swim. I have sailed to Baltimore many times, but my favorite "destination" is Georgetown on the scenic Sassafras River.
on what you like most -- destination cruising or shortest distance to your boat. I have been on the upper bay now for nine years. I have berthed Explorer at Owens, Perryville Yacht Club, and Tidewater. Havre de Grace is a charming small town, with many good restaurants and shops. There are several marinas to choose from, but Tidewater is unquestionably the nicest one, and the most expensive. On the other side of the river (technically, I believe the Susquehanna River ends and the Chesapeake Bay begins at Havre de Grace), Perryville has two marinas, but you need to get under the Amtrak bridge to get there (the charts show this as a swing bridge, but the local word is that you have to pay Amtrak to open it -- otherwise, your mast needs to be less than 50'). Owens has a pool, but most of its slips do not have shore power. Owens is also very shallow in places, and even in my next-to-the end slip, I can get hung up at low tide. A little farther north is Port Deposit, which appears to have one marina, although I have heard it is part of a condo complex. The town is very quaint and at least worth a visit. As the many other posters here have pointed out, there is a trade-off between more driving time if you keep your boat lower in the bay, versus less driving time for the upper bay. The link I've inserted is to the website for a local sailing school which gives cruising destinations and travel time from Havre de Grace. I-95 can get very congested around the Delaware tolls and the Churchman's area where SR1 (shore traffic) merges. But, there are many alternate routes. US1 is the easiest way to travel from the MD border to Kennett Square/West Chester, not I-95. Even if you decide to use I-95, at least cross the Susquehanna on US40 using the Thomas J. Hatem Memorial Bridge. The toll on this bridge is the same as on I-95, but you can buy an annual bridge sticker for the cost of a single toll ($5). The sticker is only valid on the Hatem bridge. As for water quality, I was unaware there was a problem with "toxic algae". If this is the thick green "pea soup" you see in places, I don't see how it would affect sailing or swimming, as the pea soup usually congeals in shallows or stagnant areas. I have always felt the water is better in the upper bay for swimming, especially when I hear stories about sea nettles and jellyfish in the more brackish middle bay. Half the time I go out on my boat, I end up anchoring out on the flats (the large, shallow expanse abeam Havre de Grace) and just chilling out. It's a great place to swim. I have sailed to Baltimore many times, but my favorite "destination" is Georgetown on the scenic Sassafras River.
A Giant thank you to all
Sounds like the HdG area might fit the bill for what I am currently looking for. At least if I can get down there for next season, and don't like it, I would have a better feel for the area and can move on from there. I'm going to try and drive down either Thursday or Saturday and poke around a bit. I think being in the town of HdG would be best to keep the admiral smiling (food and shopping). We only go out sailing for a few hours at a time since we bring our dogs with us. Again, many, many thanks. I'm really impressed with the amount of responses. I've come to the realization that I should have started investigating this much sooner. Manny
Sounds like the HdG area might fit the bill for what I am currently looking for. At least if I can get down there for next season, and don't like it, I would have a better feel for the area and can move on from there. I'm going to try and drive down either Thursday or Saturday and poke around a bit. I think being in the town of HdG would be best to keep the admiral smiling (food and shopping). We only go out sailing for a few hours at a time since we bring our dogs with us. Again, many, many thanks. I'm really impressed with the amount of responses. I've come to the realization that I should have started investigating this much sooner. Manny
Sounds like a plan
Manny, sounds like you have a plan. I should be around some time on Saturday if you make it down. I'm next door to tidewater at log pond. I advise you to compare prices, I found log pond more reasonable than tidewater and like I said, you still get all of the service.
Manny, sounds like you have a plan. I should be around some time on Saturday if you make it down. I'm next door to tidewater at log pond. I advise you to compare prices, I found log pond more reasonable than tidewater and like I said, you still get all of the service.
Manny...
the HdGYC out of Tidewater has it's annual fall invitational race on Sat Sep 29th. If you make your recon trip that weekend you'll get to talk to a large number of sailors that are active on the northern Bay.
the HdGYC out of Tidewater has it's annual fall invitational race on Sat Sep 29th. If you make your recon trip that weekend you'll get to talk to a large number of sailors that are active on the northern Bay.
Hello Jim
Yes we were out of Winter's Sailing Center. Thank you for the info, we lived outside of Cape May for years. I spent all of my youth boating at the Jersey shore, including running party fishing boats out of Wildwood Crest, and Cape May. After relocating to Camden County we just needed a change of pace, and we got hooked on cruising. We enjoy the Chesapeake Bay very much, and where we are located on the Bohemia River we can still cruise to the South Jersey shore rather easily by going thru the C&D canal. If you ever get near the Bohemia please look us up, at Bohemia Vista slip c-11. John s/v Sanctuary II
Yes we were out of Winter's Sailing Center. Thank you for the info, we lived outside of Cape May for years. I spent all of my youth boating at the Jersey shore, including running party fishing boats out of Wildwood Crest, and Cape May. After relocating to Camden County we just needed a change of pace, and we got hooked on cruising. We enjoy the Chesapeake Bay very much, and where we are located on the Bohemia River we can still cruise to the South Jersey shore rather easily by going thru the C&D canal. If you ever get near the Bohemia please look us up, at Bohemia Vista slip c-11. John s/v Sanctuary II
Update
I went down to Perryville and Havre De Grace on Thursday. I'm pretty sure I stopped at every marina in that area. I ended up grabbing a slip at Log Pond and I can't wait to get down there! I'll probably ask a lot of silly questions before it comes time to take the boat down. I did some rough calculations and if I can average 5 mph the whole way down it will take just over 19 hours. I already have three volunteers that want to make the trip with me!!!! Thanks to everyone who replied to this post, Manny
I went down to Perryville and Havre De Grace on Thursday. I'm pretty sure I stopped at every marina in that area. I ended up grabbing a slip at Log Pond and I can't wait to get down there! I'll probably ask a lot of silly questions before it comes time to take the boat down. I did some rough calculations and if I can average 5 mph the whole way down it will take just over 19 hours. I already have three volunteers that want to make the trip with me!!!! Thanks to everyone who replied to this post, Manny
Wow, that strong!
Before I set off for that trip I was going to ask about the currents on the c&d canal. Three to four knots I would not be too much headway (if any). So far the plan will be the first day leave with the tide and make it to the mouth of the C&D. We will be fighting the tide at some point. The next day run down the canal with the tide. More questions to follow... Manny
Before I set off for that trip I was going to ask about the currents on the c&d canal. Three to four knots I would not be too much headway (if any). So far the plan will be the first day leave with the tide and make it to the mouth of the C&D. We will be fighting the tide at some point. The next day run down the canal with the tide. More questions to follow... Manny
Manny , If you can get a copy of Reed's Nautical
Almanac. It has detaied tide and current tables for the entire east coast. The tables never go out of date as they are referenced to the daily tides at specific points.
Almanac. It has detaied tide and current tables for the entire east coast. The tables never go out of date as they are referenced to the daily tides at specific points.
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