Have any of you tried this....

[Sumner]

Let me see if I can draw some fire here: I don't think that any traveler implementation will decrease heel enough to be meaningful to anyone in the cockpit.
Anyone disagree?
Mike

I'm interested in doing this after Bob told me about it and that is my story and I'm sticking to it as I respect him, but I guess I won't know until I try it.

Here is a quote:

As the wind increases also start to lower the traveler to help keep the boat flats and reduces helm.

from here....

http://www.thunderbirdsailing.org/Articles/Tuning_guides/north_sails_rig_tuningguide.htm

I found some others along the same line. I guess the true test will come when the wind rises and Ruth's reaction to what the boat is doing. She is usually on the tiller and knows to turn into the wind if there is a gust or she feels uncomfortable and it helps since she has control over the situation. Ruth can easily tell a 2 degree heel change....say from 12 to 14, so if I can pick up 2 degrees we will be ahead of the game.

I think one thing that will help is the new sails. The old ones were really blown out and you couldn't get them flat at all.

If I get the traveler made I'll re-post back later in the summer as to if it was worth it or not.

About my operation, thanks for the concern guys, but hopefully it isn't a big deal. I had one 17 years ago and that was bad, now the way they do it isn't near as bad. I had a double hernia operation last December and was up and doing stuff in a couple days. They don't want you laying around, just not lifting anything heavy for a month. This is going to cancel or immediate return to Lake Powell. The first trip will probably be Idaho, Wyo in July/August. I don't want to do anything to jeopardize us going to Florida in the fall though.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Timo42]

Sum, what you are talking about is dual preventers, I have sailed in both Novelman's V22 and a buddy's 30' Islander rigged this way. It works, just remember to back up the mounting points, lot of strain there and you have to release one control while tightening the other. That being said, I much prefer my traveler and midboom sheeting setup. It goes all the way across the cockpit, about 5' long,10" back from the companion way and I use it all the time. A shorter one stuck in the footwell area wouldn't be worth the effort imho, unless you were using scrounged parts, the expense is in the car and control ends not the rail and you don't get enough travel to make a difference.. There are pics of my setup here somewhere and I will see if I can't find some of the Islander tomorrow. Either control is a big improvement over the stock setup.

Get well soon, you coming out this direction this summer?

 

[mcorse]

What Timo said. I'm not denying that you'd get decreased heel, just that you wouldn't get much decreased heel. My footwell traveler doesn't do much of anything.
Timo, does your long traveler provide noticable decreased heel?

 

[Sumner]

....you coming out this direction this summer?

We probably won't be that way until next spring now. We were there twice in the last 45 days or so for Ruth to finish up some dental work. That is done . We will probably be back next spring to visit her kids.

Thanks for the info on the traveler. If I buy or make one it will also be long. Here are three pictures of the one Bob H. had on his Mac 26S (now sold and he has a Hunter)....

If I do this I'll probably place it aft a little more.....where the single stock main sheet hooks to now. I want it to be like Bob's, but I'm going to try making all of the parts, so it won't look as nice.

I also think I can make it so that it is quickly put into place or removed, so that if we want we can still sail with just the stock one location attachment. Bob told me that he really liked the above layout.

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[MrBill_FLL]

If I do this I'll probably place it aft a little more.....where the single stock main sheet hooks to now. I want it to be like Bob's, but I'm going to try making all of the parts, so it won't look as nice.

imho.... Bob picked the best spot. (and had the nicest setup)

if you want to sleep in the cockpit its the most out of the way, and easier getting in and out of the cabin. wide enough to make a difference, and nice controls on the ends.

the way I understand using a traveler is, you are keeping the same sail shape, but by moving the boom further out, you are spilling more air. so it will flatten the boat.

but I think it works better in the higher degrees for a mac. over say 12 degrees. 1st 10 degrees are just tender.

I think more tiller time will build confidence, and liking 15-20 degrees heel...

 

[Sumner]

imho.... Bob picked the best spot. (and had the nicest setup)

if you want to sleep in the cockpit its the most out of the way, and easier getting in and out of the cabin. wide enough to make a difference, and nice controls on the ends.

the way I understand using a traveler is, you are keeping the same sail shape, but by moving the boom further out, you are spilling more air. so it will flatten the boat.

but I think it works better in the higher degrees for a mac. over say 12 degrees. 1st 10 degrees are just tender.

I think more tiller time will build confidence, and liking 15-20 degrees heel...

Yes Bob's spot is good from the stand points that you posted. He also moved the bail back on the boom if I remember right to keep the angle the same.

If what I envision works the track and car will go in and out of use in less than 30 seconds, so would be out of the way while anchored and a lot of the time not used as we would use the stock attach point.

I think there are two ways it helps with the healing. One is that it does help to flatten the sail and de-power it when the car is more directly under the boom.

The other is the change in leverage that takes place on the boat. The sail is exerting a force on the boat through the main sheet and is pulling on the boat. I think of it as a big hand trying to pull the boat over (heeling). Let's take things to extremes. Say the main sheet is attached to the boat on the high side while it is heeling. The force the main sheet puts on the boat tries to pull it over even further since the lever arm is out on the high side.

Now attach the main sheet to the middle of the boat in the stock location. The force transmitted to the boat now has a shorter lever arm and doesn't try to pull the boat over as hard.

Move the main sheet all the way to the low side and it has an easier time pulling the boom down and flattening the sail and now the lever arm is much less and it doesn't have near the effect in pulling the boat over as it did up on the high side or even when it was attached in the middle.

That is the way I see it anyway .

Ruth likes 10-12 degrees at the moment and can tolerate 15-16. Time and learning how to swim will help that. She has only been out on the water about 50 days at this point in her life. I'll bet by this time next year 16-18 will be fine and more than that isn't going to do us much good.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

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[Timo42]

Here is my traveller setup, continuous loop of line to the control so it's easy to find, the traveller car is on rollers which makes it easier to adjust under load, when anchored, the car is pulled off to the side, which clears the boom from the cockpit, the track doesn't get in the way. The other pic is my best shot of Doug's double preventer setup, it works, but instead of using the traveller and main sheet to control different things, you have to balance the two preventers. His has a mainsheet and a pinstop traveller, which I had tightened before the pic, but he usually trims the main with the preventers.

 

[timebandit]

What is that traveler for?

The main halyard controls the draft of the sail.

The outhaul controls the amount of the draft in the sail.

The main sheet conrrols the position of boom and thus the angle of the sail.

If you want to sail close hauled you need to center the boom so you haul in on the main sheet untill the the upper batten is aligned with the boom and you discover that the boom still is not centered, enter the the traveler.

Adjust the traveler to windward to center the boom with proper sail shape.

About now the helmsman is complaining of to much weather helm, the cure, ease the traveler a little to blance the helm.

To ease the amount of heel you need to depower the rig either by flatening the main by tightening the out haul or reefing.

 

[flynfol]

....add a cunningham, adjustable backstay, a vang and you have the main about covered.........the more you sail, the finer tune you seek. If heel is an issue, just reef.

look at this link under chrysler 26, then vector sails on left, good initial description on sail tune. Best thnig is go out and play with different combinations to see what they do. The main is one adjustable airfoil.

http://windward.lizards.net/index.html

 

[walt]

As mentioned before, I like the traveler because I can basically control the sheeting angle of the sail - but keep the sail FLAT. In high winds, you want a flat twisty sail for control. You dont want a bagged out sail with a big pocket. Its not where or how you apply the forces, its the shape of the sail - and particularly the shape of the sail when its sheeted out more than normal (at least for me).

Interesting to note is that I do a lot of sailing at high elevation in the mountains. These conditions result in particularly gusty and varying wind. If I had to rely on reefing, I would be setting and taking out the reef all day long. With the traveler, I need to reef less. But Im guessing that my conditions are a bit on the extreme side. FYI, the old Mac with the traveler, back stay, vang is a lot of fun to sail in these conditions..

Also, if I were putting in a traveler, I would make it as long as possible. You have to move it back from the companionway for max lenght. The one I have is as long as possible and I use all of it.

 

[flynfol]

I agree Walt. I learned to sail and race on 470s. I wouldn't own a sailboat that didn't have all those devices, they are particularly effective when used together(traveler for quick depowering along with backstay). But if the wind pipes up, reef early and often

 

[timebandit]

Why not just release the main sheet or better yet head up into the wind a little and not release anything??

I agree Walt. I learned to sail and race on 470s. I wouldn't own a sailboat that didn't have all those devices, they are particularly effective when used together(traveler for quick depowering along with backstay). But if the wind pipes up, reef early and often

 

[flynfol]

Well, you could do that, but when in close quarters that could mean a collision or being passed:cry:

But then I'll bet you KNEW that.........

 

[timebandit]

Yea, I knew that BUT I thought we were talking about helping Ruth (become a racer).

Well, you could do that, but when in close quarters that could mean a collision or being passed:cry:

But then I'll bet you KNEW that.........

 

[Doug J]

Here's my traveler. It's five feet long, longest I could fit. It's installed right over the original eye strap connection point, backed with a strip of aluminum. It is setup with a continuous loop, I think like Timo's. I have to agree with Timo, that it really doesn't get in the way. While at anchor or at a dock, I just move it all the way to port or starboard, so it's not in the middle of the companionway. I often unhook the sheet all together and move it to the lifeline stancion, to really get it out of the way.

Sum, I really can't see why you'd want to remove the traveler and use the original eye strap. I also think the track mounted right over the original eye strap location is a good idea, because that's where you'll get the most strength, and you can make the track longer, as opposed to moving it all the way forward.

 

[Sumner]

.......Sum, I really can't see why you'd want to remove the traveler and use the original eye strap.....

If I had a commercial one I wouldn't remove it. Yours looks great and is where I'll locate mine.

Since mine is going to be homemade the track will probably be 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches tall, so will stick up quite a bit more and be more of a nuisance. Since there is just the two of us we don't sit where the track is, so that isn't a problem. It is just moving in and out of the cabin at the end or beginning of the day. Sometimes when we finish sailing for the day we are pretty much just down below, so then I'd just leave it hooked up.

Latter when we quit spending money on some of this other stuff we will probably invest in a commercial one.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[Doug J]

Sum, you might be able to find parts rather inexpensively if you shop, such as this Harken track on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hark...3611861QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

 

[Sumner]

Sum, you might be able to find parts rather inexpensively if you shop, such as this Harken track on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hark...3611861QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

Thanks, but I can't seem to come up with the car and end pieces and the track for under about $250 to $300. Anyone done better than that?

The tracks aren't too much and I thought about buying that and making the car, but I have pretty good machining skills, but to make a car to work with their track and have ball bearings would be awful hard for me to do.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[Timo42]

Sum, I would buy the car and track, and build the end controls. Harken has a 2726 small boat traveller for about $95, and the 4'11"low beam track for $62, or you could call Minneys, they had a stack of them last time I was there, mostly for bigger boats though.

 

[Sumner]

John who makes that car and track? That looks like something I could machine/make easier than what I had in mind. Do you like it?

Thanks,

Sum
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