Wow... Faztek came back with a great design for over the fuel tank with their T-Slotted Aluminum .... However, they want over $500 for the material.... Maybe I have to ask if there is a cheaper way of doing it.... See PDF.
H34 Starter Battery Location on top of the Fuel Tank????
- Thread starter PGIJon
- Start date
Well the balance would be better over the fuel tank versus over next to the starboard hull... however, I agree, lower would be better... however, over the fuel tank only raises them about 12" overall....
Nice design. Now you have to do what comes naturally to me..Scrounge for deals. E-Bay is a good starting point. Don't know if you have any Surplus Metal suppliers out your way. If there are any electronics or other light manufacturing operations they always have someone responsible for disposing of surplus assets. They used to sell stuff like that by the pound at my company. You might find an enclosure that you can pick up cheap and disassemble to get all the material you need.
OK... So, here's where I'm at. I now have (see pic, please note that I have not yet finished my wiring, hence the wiring mess) 2 EGC2 6v batteries from Sams Club and a Group 27 as the Standby. I've decided that my idea to put the batteries on top of the fuel tank as several problems. First and foremost is that if the shelve ever failed and 150+ pound of batteries are placed onto the fuel tank, said tank might rupture and spill a lot of fuel into the bilge which could cause the pumps to start and pump the fuel out... Not good.... The second problem, is that I'm not sure I could lift those 6v batteries into position while being scrunched over in the dungeon..... Hence, I am trying to figure out another place for the batteries... I suppose I could put those aft of the spare battery in the dungeon... Maybe under the sink... but that really wouldn't help with the H34 starboard list issue.
Also, I think I may change MS's suggestion that the spare only be used as a spare. I've noticed that when starting the engine with the two 6's, the electronics all turn off.... So, I'm thinking of using the spare as the starter. I have 2 fall backs for emergencies. 1) I carry a portable 12v jump Jump-N-Carry http://www.amazon.com/Clore-Jump-N-..._1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1420216700&sr=1-1 that I can easily hook up to my new terminal block and if that fails I can either jump the House block to the Starter block and feed the starter off of that..... I could add a switch for that jump what would normally remain open. Since the Alternator is connected to the House bank, the ACR would immediately recharge the starter/spare battery.
Any comments????? Thanks and Happy New Year to all! -Jon
Also, I think I may change MS's suggestion that the spare only be used as a spare. I've noticed that when starting the engine with the two 6's, the electronics all turn off.... So, I'm thinking of using the spare as the starter. I have 2 fall backs for emergencies. 1) I carry a portable 12v jump Jump-N-Carry http://www.amazon.com/Clore-Jump-N-..._1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1420216700&sr=1-1 that I can easily hook up to my new terminal block and if that fails I can either jump the House block to the Starter block and feed the starter off of that..... I could add a switch for that jump what would normally remain open. Since the Alternator is connected to the House bank, the ACR would immediately recharge the starter/spare battery.
Any comments????? Thanks and Happy New Year to all! -Jon
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Nothing wrong with using a dedicated start battery but with two 6V GC2's your electronics should not be dropping out on low voltage unless the batteries are very cold... Likely a wire sizing, resistance or low temp issue... I can start much bigger engines, than a small sailboat aux, with no drop outs...
If you have a 1/2/BOTH you will need to isolate the start battery with an additional ON/OFF switch or you will still be dropping out electronics when you switch to the "start" battery...
Thank you Maine! I'm a bit confused as to the On/Off switch... If I have the 1/2/Both on 1 (House) and the starter battery is wired directly to the battery, would it still have the drop out? I was thinking of using the ACR's Start Isolation (SI) Wire.
As far as the electronics dropping out, the wire run to the 1/2/off is a 5 foot long 4AGW wire.... then approx. 9 more feet of wiring to the Panel.... I believe that this is all original 1986 H34 wring... Is there a good way to testing for the dropout before I replace all the wire?
Thank you for all your help!
-Jon
As far as the electronics dropping out, the wire run to the 1/2/off is a 5 foot long 4AGW wire.... then approx. 9 more feet of wiring to the Panel.... I believe that this is all original 1986 H34 wring... Is there a good way to testing for the dropout before I replace all the wire?
Thank you for all your help!
-Jon
You should NOT direct wire the start battery to the starter. It should have an isolation switch... It is also wise to be able to use that bank as an emergency house bank should the need arise.
This wiring allows for that:
4GA is insufficient if you don't want drop out...
Lets assume your starters in-rush is 350A and the bank temporarily sags to 11.8V under that load. Now we add 18' of 4GA wire (round trip not just one way) and we have a brief voltage drop of nearly 14.5% on the circuit when accounting for terminals and switch etc.. That 14.5% is another -1.7V drop. So if the battery sags to 11.8 under a 350A in-rush and we subtract 1.7V from that makes your electronics are seeing a brief point of 10.1V which is enough to drop them out.
There are a number of ways to test this but most involve instruments that can capture fast transients and most DIY's don't have tools that fast...
Here is a schematic of how mine is set up with 2 switches. I have two 1-2-both switches. One is labeled "House" and the other is labeled "Engine". Under normal conditions I set both to 1 position. House goes to DC panel, Engine battery cranks engine. If ever needed I can cross over engine start to house bank or house requirements to Engine battery by choosing position 2 on a respective switch. I never use both position at all.
Once again, are you sure that your three batteries won't fit in front of the fuel tank? I had no problem with the short side of the Group 27 against the berth bulkhead, and the two 6 V batteries next to it (short sides facing forward). Then its a straight shot right down through the opening to install all three.
Allan
Maine.... Thank you again for sharing your invaluable knowledge... Based on what you mention, I'm going to recomputed and rewire the cables and then see if there is still a drop out. If not then I'll go back to using the backup battery as a backup.. Otherwise I'll add the On/Off as your diagram depicts.
Is the ACR's Start Isolation (SI) Wire worth wiring up in the Blue Sea SI-ACR Automatic Charging Relay PN 7610?
Allan Thank you for sharing! I'll study your schematic this afternoon.... What size wire are you running? I might have room in the port settee for 2 6-V's however, that would be a long run and would probably need some very heavy wire... Maybe to heavy to run..... Hmmmmm
Is the ACR's Start Isolation (SI) Wire worth wiring up in the Blue Sea SI-ACR Automatic Charging Relay PN 7610?
Allan Thank you for sharing! I'll study your schematic this afternoon.... What size wire are you running? I might have room in the port settee for 2 6-V's however, that would be a long run and would probably need some very heavy wire... Maybe to heavy to run..... Hmmmmm
Allan... Really liked what you did with the dual battery switches! Just ordered another one! Thanks for the idea!
Jon,
Glad to help. You could have saved a little money with Main Sail's configuration by just using the on-off switch. In my case, I installed that before HOW and someone gave me that second switch. Can't get much cheaper than FREE.
The one extra thing my set up gives is the ability to power the house with the start bank but still keep the starter motor isolated. Why do I need to do that? I have no idea, just that I can. :dance:I am still using 4 gauge wire for the engine battery like the original set up. All the interconnects between the 4 6 Volt batteries is 1/0 gauge (that's the bits that wire the pairs in series as well as the ones that parallel them). From the house bank back to the charger/power post I use 4 gauge. It may be undersized (the Xantrex charger manual said 6 gauge for 3% drop at 20 feet one way), but my power demands are really small. Just some lights and an LED TV. The Electroscan is right on top of the house bank. My charger is the farthest away (25' round trip). I usually set my charger for cold in the winter (which is mostly in the 40-50 degree range). The higher charging voltage maybe helps if there is significant voltage drop. I don't use float to maintain them, just bulk and absorption. I've only had my Balmer Smart Gauge since October and am still learning the voltages at 100% SOC. My batteries are 5 years old.
(The duct in the picture is a separate project).
Allan
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Allan...
Thanks for the info! After Maine's comments, I was wondering what you did...
Do you leave the starter on 1 while you sail?
The price difference between the On/Off and the O/1/B/2 switch wasn't that bad, but obviously not as good as free. I like the flexibility you created and like you I am not sure why the motor being isolated works but I'm smart enough to listen to MS! Also, based on MS's comments, I'm upping the wiring between the new terminals and the O/1/B/2 switch... Also may be upping the wire to the Starter...
As far as your earlier question, as you can see in the pic, the dual 6's take up almost all the room in front of the fuel tank. Not even enough to squeeze the 12v Group 27 in there. Since I do not have any real electrical consumption hogs, with the exception of the auto pilot, I've been wondering if the two 6's will suffice? Since I've had the boat now almost 3 years, we've only done day sailing. So I don't really know much regarding the consumption, except it overwhelmed the single Group 29 that was the previous house battery.
Is the duct to vent the engine area? I was thinking about doing something like that.... do you have a fan on it or is it passive? Where does it exhaust to? or it is something completely different?
Thanks again!
Thanks for the info! After Maine's comments, I was wondering what you did...
Do you leave the starter on 1 while you sail?
The price difference between the On/Off and the O/1/B/2 switch wasn't that bad, but obviously not as good as free. I like the flexibility you created and like you I am not sure why the motor being isolated works but I'm smart enough to listen to MS! Also, based on MS's comments, I'm upping the wiring between the new terminals and the O/1/B/2 switch... Also may be upping the wire to the Starter...
As far as your earlier question, as you can see in the pic, the dual 6's take up almost all the room in front of the fuel tank. Not even enough to squeeze the 12v Group 27 in there. Since I do not have any real electrical consumption hogs, with the exception of the auto pilot, I've been wondering if the two 6's will suffice? Since I've had the boat now almost 3 years, we've only done day sailing. So I don't really know much regarding the consumption, except it overwhelmed the single Group 29 that was the previous house battery.
Is the duct to vent the engine area? I was thinking about doing something like that.... do you have a fan on it or is it passive? Where does it exhaust to? or it is something completely different?
Thanks again!
PGIjon
Hi back in Fl and getting ready to race Jan 17-18 and also waiting for my damaged Jib from repair.
Any way 2 6-volt's should be plenty for day sailing and start motor for starting as backup is good with some kind of charging off house bank.
I have my house bank to alternator and extra off & on switch from house to starter as backup and when ever motoring the alternator is always charging
the house bank and on & off switch backup in case start battery needs help
for some reason and never need to do any switching for charging my house bank
but if needed switch on & off to charge starter battery or help from house bank
for starting and my off and on backup is easy to get to in cockpit compartment.
Nick
Hi back in Fl and getting ready to race Jan 17-18 and also waiting for my damaged Jib from repair.
Any way 2 6-volt's should be plenty for day sailing and start motor for starting as backup is good with some kind of charging off house bank.
I have my house bank to alternator and extra off & on switch from house to starter as backup and when ever motoring the alternator is always charging
the house bank and on & off switch backup in case start battery needs help
for some reason and never need to do any switching for charging my house bank
but if needed switch on & off to charge starter battery or help from house bank
for starting and my off and on backup is easy to get to in cockpit compartment.
Nick
Re: PGIjon
Thanks Nick... How is your battery usage when you are anchoring around the area? Do you think the dual 6's would hold up an overnight here? I sent a note to Steve seeing when is good for him to get together. Thanks.. Jon
Thanks Nick... How is your battery usage when you are anchoring around the area? Do you think the dual 6's would hold up an overnight here? I sent a note to Steve seeing when is good for him to get together. Thanks.. Jon
Depends
Really depends what you are using on the boat,when we go cruising or just over night my wife uses all the bells and whistles that we have on board and I make
sure my wife is happy out on the water.
She likes to make food just like on land and we have more than 1 ref/freezer
and TV with booster for at night and her microwave and my electric coffee pot
is a must.
I have led lights and do try to conserve 12 volt power but we have all the bells and whistles and we both enjoy using them to enjoy our boat so we really are not boaters to gauge by and life is short so we are making it as much fun as possible while we can,we both worked pretty hard and now time to enjoy our retirement:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:
Nick
let me know when is good and Tues & Thursday morning is my biking with bicycle
club.
Really depends what you are using on the boat,when we go cruising or just over night my wife uses all the bells and whistles that we have on board and I make
sure my wife is happy out on the water.
She likes to make food just like on land and we have more than 1 ref/freezer
and TV with booster for at night and her microwave and my electric coffee pot
is a must.
I have led lights and do try to conserve 12 volt power but we have all the bells and whistles and we both enjoy using them to enjoy our boat so we really are not boaters to gauge by and life is short so we are making it as much fun as possible while we can,we both worked pretty hard and now time to enjoy our retirement:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:
Nick
let me know when is good and Tues & Thursday morning is my biking with bicycle
club.
Jon: Do you leave the starter on 1 while you sail?
*** Yes. Might need to start up in an emergency. When we're at the dock and not going anywhere it is usually off.
Jon: Since I do not have any real electrical consumption hogs, with the exception of the auto pilot, I've been wondering if the two 6's will suffice?
***Before I installed an ElectroScan I only had the two 6's and it was fine. Consider a solar panel (mine is 25 Watts). I would just leave it out on the deck when anchored and clamp directly to the battery terminals. No controller. It supplemented my meager usage where I could go about 3 days on the two 6's. By then we'd be motoring or motor sailing somewhere else and recharging that way.
Jon: Is the duct to vent the engine area? I was thinking about doing something like that.... do you have a fan on it or is it passive? Where does it exhaust to? or it is something completely different?
***Different topic, but yes I have a fan in that Beckson port and the dryer hose goes up to the opening port above. Helps cool the engine and adds ventilation to the boat when we are away.
*** Yes. Might need to start up in an emergency. When we're at the dock and not going anywhere it is usually off.
Jon: Since I do not have any real electrical consumption hogs, with the exception of the auto pilot, I've been wondering if the two 6's will suffice?
***Before I installed an ElectroScan I only had the two 6's and it was fine. Consider a solar panel (mine is 25 Watts). I would just leave it out on the deck when anchored and clamp directly to the battery terminals. No controller. It supplemented my meager usage where I could go about 3 days on the two 6's. By then we'd be motoring or motor sailing somewhere else and recharging that way.
Jon: Is the duct to vent the engine area? I was thinking about doing something like that.... do you have a fan on it or is it passive? Where does it exhaust to? or it is something completely different?
***Different topic, but yes I have a fan in that Beckson port and the dryer hose goes up to the opening port above. Helps cool the engine and adds ventilation to the boat when we are away.
I put my batteries in the footwell by the aft stateroom. The aft stateroom is my attic or basement, so I'm not using it for sleeping. Moving the batteries to Port will level out the boat, as they list a bit to stb. in the standard configuration.
Filling the aft water tank will make the boat drag its transom, and is bad for performance under sail. I only fill the aft tank when I am planning to cruise. It is empty when racing, or day sailing.
Filling the aft water tank will make the boat drag its transom, and is bad for performance under sail. I only fill the aft tank when I am planning to cruise. It is empty when racing, or day sailing.
Hello.
I went down to the boat today and got pictures of my battery arrangement.
Here is the starter battery forward of the fuel tank and the house batteries sitting on the other side of the bulkhead. Batteries are not yet secured and the hole in the bulkhead is unfinished.
I went down to the boat today and got pictures of my battery arrangement.
Here is the starter battery forward of the fuel tank and the house batteries sitting on the other side of the bulkhead. Batteries are not yet secured and the hole in the bulkhead is unfinished.
