H30 Main Halyard Winch is Loose

[malyea]

The main halyard winch, mounted to port of the companionway on the cabin roof, has pulled loose. It seems that the PO or Hunter mounted the main and jib halyard winches (old Lewmar single speed 7s) using 5 sheet metal screws (#8 to #12 and 3/4" long) that were screwed into just the 1/2" to 3/4" of fiberglass that covers what seems to be imbedded backing plates.....not into the backing plate - just into the fiberglass over the plate.

And they didn't even do a good job of it - as shown in the photo of the main halyard winch base and all of the 'extra' holes drilled into the fiberglass but not deep enough to secure to the backing plate......

Is there actually an imbedded metal (aluminum?) backing plate for these halyard winches either side of the companionway? My probing seems to indicate some metal under about 5/8" of fiberglass.....

Is this the Hunter standard i.e., to use 5 sheet metal screws screwed into just 3/4" of fiberglass to mount the halyard winches?

The starboard jib halyard seems strongly mounted using this method but 2 of the 5 screws have pulled loose from the fiberglass on the main halyard winch so I need to figure out a good repair and then probably apply the "preventive fix" to the jib halyard winch.

What is a good way to repair the stripped out screw holes for the main halyard winch? I've got a couple ideas but would like to hear what others might do or have done.

Thanks!

 

[Dalliance]

Assuming your '82 H30 is the same as mine, what you have is a 1/4" thick aluminum "bolt plate" (for lack of a better term), laminated into the cabin top under about 3/8" of fiberglass and on top of the plywood core. The extents of the bolt plate are indicated by the raised areas on the cabin top to each side of the companionway. Same at the deck organizers, traveler track ends and at the mast base too. There are also aluminum plates in the side decks at the chainplates, but but I don't know how large they are because they kept the deck flush. The intent is that these bolt plates be drilled and tapped to receive hex head machine bolts. I can't quite imagine using sheet metal screws there and don't think Hunter did. That's just wrong in several ways.

The photo looks to me like the P.O. changed the winches, found the new bolt holes did not line up, and drilled new holes right next to the original instead of rotating the new winch base a bit. Holes next to holes where going to fail eventually. Even if properly threaded for machine bolts.

When I upgraded to ST winches a few years ago, the bolt pattern of the new winch bases did not match the old, so I cleaned out the old holes with a shop vac and MEK, filled them with epoxy, then drilled & tapped new threaded holes as far from the originals as possible. I used 1" long 1/4" dia. 20 thread stainless steel hex head machine bolts and 3M 4200 sealant. I think this would be the proper fix in your situation too.

 

[kito]

I will be removing my halyard winch from the mast and installing it on the starboard raised winch area on the cabin top. I didn't know that there is a aluminum plate there but I still plan on drilling through and using machine bolts and finish washers with acorn nuts....sealing each one of course with 4200. Or maybe use flat head machine screws with finish washers and install the nuts on the winch side if there is room.

 

[malyea]

Thanks Dalliance, looks like I'll be drilling and tapping.

 

[kito]

I would consider installing Helicoils when tapping into aluminum.

 

[Dalliance]

Kito,

You may not have aluminum plates in your '79 H30 anyway. It might just be an added layer of plywood. Hunter made a number of design changes to the H30 over the years and I think the aluminum bolt plates were one that came later. Maybe others with a '79 H30 can confirm.

I had to google Helicoils. Had never heard of them. It looks like the perfect fix for stripped out threads in a situation where you don't have the option to drill and tap a new bolt hole. Also a great method to reinforce threads in a softer metal like aluminum as you suggested. I'm not sure it would work as a repair where adjacent holes are conjoined though, which looks to be the case with some of the bolt holes on Malyea's cabin top.

I love this forum! Learn something new and useful every day.

 

[newage1461]

This is an ESP moment. I was literally just thinking of this before I logged on and SNAP!! Here it is.. So, how much bolt will extend through the plate, and not through the cabin liner top?

 

[kito]

This is an ESP moment. I was literally just thinking of this before I logged on and SNAP!! Here it is.. So, how much bolt will extend through the plate, and not through the cabin liner top?

On my 79 H30 the cabin top thickness is about 1.25" thick. I am removing the old air cowls and installing solar vents into the 4" holes and measured the cabin thickness. There are not any aluminum plates in that area that I can tell (didn't remove the cowl boxes yet). Just measure the thickness of the winch flange and washers and add 1/4" for the aluminum plate and maybe 1/2" for the deck fiberglass thickness. That should get you into the core without hitting the liner. Be sure to use bolts that are threaded up to the head so there are threads in the aluminum plate. Like I mentioned earlier, if tapping thin aluminum you may want to use Helicoils (helical inserts) especially on a winch where there are side loads trying to pull the bolts out. In the PO's photo it shows that the winch was rotated around a few times......

 

[malyea]

Assuming your '82 H30 is the same as mine, what you have is a 1/4" thick aluminum "bolt plate" (for lack of a better term), laminated into the cabin top under about 3/8" of fiberglass and on top of the plywood core. The extents of the bolt plate are indicated by the raised areas on the cabin top to each side of the companionway. Same at the deck organizers, traveler track ends and at the mast base too. There are also aluminum plates in the side decks at the chainplates, but but I don't know how large they are because they kept the deck flush. The intent is that these bolt plates be drilled and tapped to receive hex head machine bolts. I can't quite imagine using sheet metal screws there and don't think Hunter did. That's just wrong in several ways.

The photo looks to me like the P.O. changed the winches, found the new bolt holes did not line up, and drilled new holes right next to the original instead of rotating the new winch base a bit. Holes next to holes where going to fail eventually. Even if properly threaded for machine bolts.

When I upgraded to ST winches a few years ago, the bolt pattern of the new winch bases did not match the old, so I cleaned out the old holes with a shop vac and MEK, filled them with epoxy, then drilled & tapped new threaded holes as far from the originals as possible. I used 1" long 1/4" dia. 20 thread stainless steel hex head machine bolts and 3M 4200 sealant. I think this would be the proper fix in your situation too.

Thanks Dalliance - it worked just as you suggested as the photos show - plus one of 'Bout Time on our last club race day.

One original threaded hole was in the perfect location to allow the winch base to rotate to offset the other 4 holes. Easy drilling thru the fiberglass and bolt plate after filling the 'old holes' with epoxy and a 'cap' of Marine Tex. It did take an initial drilling with a 5/64" bit before working up to the 1/4" bit but the tapping was easy for the 1/4" machine screws.

Still can't believe how a PO could have thought it was OK to 'secure' the winch with 3/4" wood screws in fiberglass...

Thanks!

 

[woodster]

did you dill 1/4 inch holes in order to tap a 1/4-20 threaded hole? or a 3/16 hole for the tap .....

regards

woody

 

[malyea]

did you dill 1/4 inch holes in order to tap a 1/4-20 threaded hole? or a 3/16 hole for the tap .....

regards

woody

When you buy a tap and drill combo for 1/4" diameter bolt/screw, the bit is 3/16" such that you are drilling a hole that is small enough for the tap to then cut threads into the drilled hole side wall.

Highly recommend starting the hole with a tiny 5/64" bit because even a 1/8" bit can 'walk" a bit on gel coat and may not 'bite' into the aluminum 'bolt plate'.

Also, others suggested 'no need' for lubricant when tapping aluminum - so I tried one hole without - it worked OK but took more effort and required more 'backing off' turns of the tap.

All in all it's easy to do!

 

[woodster]

When you buy a tap and drill combo for 1/4" diameter bolt/screw, the bit is 3/16" such that you are drilling a hole that is small enough for the tap to then cut threads into the drilled hole side wall.

Highly recommend starting the hole with a tiny 5/64" bit because even a 1/8" bit can 'walk" a bit on gel coat and may not 'bite' into the aluminum 'bolt plate'.

Also, others suggested 'no need' for lubricant when tapping aluminum - so I tried one hole without - it worked OK but took more effort and required more 'backing off' turns of the tap.

All in all it's easy to do!

thank you for the reply ....when i was doing window wall we used bees wax for a lub on the tap works great ...

regards

woody

 

[Dalliance]

Thanks Dalliance - it worked just as you suggested as the photos show - plus one of 'Bout Time on our last club race day.

One original threaded hole was in the perfect location to allow the winch base to rotate to offset the other 4 holes. Easy drilling thru the fiberglass and bolt plate after filling the 'old holes' with epoxy and a 'cap' of Marine Tex. It did take an initial drilling with a 5/64" bit before working up to the 1/4" bit but the tapping was easy for the 1/4" machine screws.

Still can't believe how a PO could have thought it was OK to 'secure' the winch with 3/4" wood screws in fiberglass...

Thanks!

You're welcome, Malyea. I'm glad it all worked out well.

Wood screws into fiberglass….to attach a winch! Scary to think what could have happened.

By the way, your boat looks great.


Dalliance

 

[Steve Dion]

Malyea:

Now that you have your winches in place it would be a great time to service them. I would remove them and totally clean and lubricate them.

When you reset them you should also use something like Tef-Gel on the screw threads to prevent the screws and aluminum plates from interacting.

 

[H30Gary]

Ditto what Steve said. Stainless bolts in aluminum plate will interact and freeze solid over time. Definately use the Tuf-Gel to prevent this.