H27 Not Offshore, but Coastal?

KD3PC · Apr 16, 2014

ready boat, and watch the weather, and you should be just fine up and down, near coastal.

On the ICW, the length, draft and mast will be an asset, compared to a larger boat. Plenty of places to duck in and stay a bit.

Enjoy!

David in Sandusky · Apr 17, 2014

H27 is a solid design

I would have no problem taking one offshore. The h27 design is solid. My concerns, as with any production boat, would be checking and upgrading systems - rigging, hull integrity, communications, storage, autopilot, etc.

A number of Cherubini h27's have made offshore trips.

As for coastal cruising, the Admiral and I think our '77 h27 is ideal! We have spent over 400 days through 14 years cruising her all over Lakes Erie, St. Clair, and Huron including the North Channel in all kinds of conditions. Lady Lillie is seaworthy and comfortable, and has a good turn of speed while reaching, the most common point of sail for cruisers. We have cruised her for a week with four adults, or two adults and three children.

The question is do you and your crew like the accommodations? If so, this is a great cruising boat!

kito · Apr 17, 2014

David in Sandusky said:
I would have no problem taking one offshore. The h27 design is solid. My concerns, as with any production boat, would be checking and upgrading systems - rigging, hull integrity, communications, storage, autopilot, etc.

A number of Cherubini h27's have made offshore trips.

As for coastal cruising, the Admiral and I think our '77 h27 is ideal! We have spent over 400 days through 14 years cruising her all over Lakes Erie, St. Clair, and Huron including the North Channel in all kinds of conditions. Lady Lillie is seaworthy and comfortable, and has a good turn of speed while reaching, the most common point of sail for cruisers. We have cruised her for a week with four adults, or two adults and three children.

The question is do you and your crew like the accommodations? If so, this is a great cruising boat!

Kind of curious why the OP said a "resounding no" being offshore capable when he only had her since last weekend. Not saying it's suitable for a transatlantic crossing but offshore would be fine in my book. I know after 4 months into my H30 restoration that the Cherubini's are build strong. My plan is sailing her to the Caribbean when I retire in 6 years.

David in Sandusky · Apr 17, 2014

Offshore

Joe Manilili is no longer active on this site, but he used to sail his h27 from Florida to Cancun and back each year.

Blaise · Apr 19, 2014

I had a friend of mine sail his 27 from Florida to Guatamala about 20 times without issue. It is not the size, but the preperation that makes you offshore capable.

braol · Apr 20, 2014

I would probably agree with Blaise...it's all in the preparation. With my experience in the H27 I would say that it can handle a lot more wind and seas than your run-of-the-mill 27 due to the heavy lead keel and stout construction. Before I would head too far offshore in less than ideal conditions though I'd follow all the modification suggestions: reduce through-hulls, jacklines, larger scuppers with checkvalves, full storm sail set, tools and parts to fix vital things, good manual bilge pump for back-up, and so on. Those offshore racing requirements all look like good ideas too and they are there for a reason. Remember that those rules are for boats crewed by real professionals and if THEY need all those safety items then us recreational sailors DEFINITELY need them.
The only drawback of the H27 that i can really see is storage capacity. I mean, sure I could stuff 30-days of supplies and water onboard but I don't know if I'd want to sail around the world in a storage shed. I'd like to be a little more comfortable, engage a below-decks autopilot and read some good books in the nice weather, have space to cook and store some good wine, a place below to write my autobiography on those dark and stormy nights by lantern light, etc... But hats off to others who are looking for the challenge!
Either way, the offshore racing safety minimum requirements are probably still a good idea even if you want to just jaunt up the coast for a week. You can never be too safe, and now that I have kids I think I'll be putting in those jacklines and 24" above the deck lifelines. You never know when the glass is going to drop and Davey Jones will go on the prowl for someone new to put in his locker.....

rufus1138 · Apr 21, 2014

the 27 is a tight strung little tank of a boat ppl, my first boat and first liveaboard experience was a 1980 27t and i whipped the living crap out of it, ive had full rig up in upper 20kts of wind some gusts to 30 or more and never had a full knock down, never took it off shore but i couldnt afford a roller furler or a storm sail set so i tried my best to be cautious

. the h27 will take it all and come back asking for more i promise, i know i was uncomfortable long before the boat was just totally done with things. and i only had an uncontrollable spin out once.

kito · Apr 22, 2014

pvtpotter said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbGVI1ClAM
In a H27...sure, why not. There is always the coast guard.

So if you had a 37 footer you would feel safe in those conditions?

braol · Apr 22, 2014

I think the in most calculations the H27 comes in as more of a medium/heavy cruiser...like in the displacement/length ratio (293.48), sail area/displacement ratio (15.04) and so on. I remember it having a "comfort ratio" of somewhere around 37, which is very high for a 27' sailboat. My own experiences in higher winds seem to bear out these numbers. Of course I don't know how I'd feel in a real storm at sea.
Here on the Bonhomme Richard I've seen equipment go flying across the room during heavy weather and we're 844' long! I couldn't imagine what it would be like on the edge of a tropical depression on a 60' full-keel ketch...let alone an H27. (I feel green just thinking about it.) But remember, Polynesian islanders crossed the Pacific in outrigger boats and made it without GPS, water-makers, or even ***GASP*** HOT COFFEE!!!! Yikes! Again, for me it would be more about comfort level and storage during a long passage that would steer me towards the 40' end of the spectrum rather than overall safety...provided that both boats were outfitted equally for safety (storm sails, drogue chute, jacklines, watertight cabin, wind protection, end-boom sheeting, etc...).

David in Sandusky · Apr 23, 2014

Wrong numbers

The capsize ratio of the 75-84 h27 is 1.93, not 2.14' making the design likely to recover if it was inverted. According to the extensive tank tests conducted after the Fastnet disaster, most likely danger to a boat caught in a storm is being caught beam on by a breaking wave higher than its beam.

A 10 foot breaking wave can roll the h27 to inverted (180 degrees). The capsize number says that it is very likely to recover. A capsize number of 2.14 says that a boat is very likely to stay inverted.

A 37 footer can be rolled by a 13 foot breaking wave. But safety in a severe storm is much more dependent on the boat's ability to right itself than on whether the storm can wear out the helmers, then rotate the boat to beam on and capsize it.

Yes, a 30 foot breaking wave can pitch pole a 27 footer, while a 37 footer would need a 40 footer to pitch pole. But the survival of the boat and crew is more a function of whether the boat will recover, however it was inverted.

The safety in length idea is a product of those interested in selling, or owning longer boats, not of any serious testing or experience with severe conditions.

braol · Apr 23, 2014

David in Sandusky said:
The capsize ratio of the 75-84 h27 is 1.93, not 2.14' making the design likely to recover if it was inverted. According to the extensive tank tests conducted after the Fastnet disaster, most likely danger to a boat caught in a storm is being caught beam on by a breaking wave higher than its beam.

Yes, a 30 foot breaking wave can pitch pole a 27 footer, while a 37 footer would need a 40 footer to pitch pole. But the survival of the boat and crew is more a function of whether the boat will recover, however it was inverted.

Dave,
Man, the thought of being pitch poled is enough to give me a cold sweat. Even with a 5-point seat belt it would be probably a top three scariest moments event. It'd probably be like being flipped and then dropped off a two storey building in your boat. Everyone always thinks about being lashed to the wheel in a storm (like it's a movie or something) but having a place to clip-in down below is just as important.
I'm sure the threat of capsize is even higher on the Great Lakes with the infamous steep chop. I've seen 17+ foot waves out here in the Pacific that were just big rollers but I'm sure a steep breaking 10' wave on Lake Michigan is more likely...and that seems enough to roll an H-27. Glad to know that the capsize ratio is in the recovery range. I'd take a lost mast and a broken arm in the upright position over an escape out the hatch while upside down in a storm. A bad day in any event....

malyea · Apr 24, 2014

Robin Lee Graham...Dove...24 foot Lapworth sloop...

That which can be done is one thing; that which I want to do is sometimes another...

braol · May 15, 2014

A wave's height need only be about 30% of a boat's length in order to potentially capsize it (per research cited in "Storm Tactics" book). Even a 50' boat can be capsized by only a 16' wave...under the right circumstances. It all comes down to preparation, passage planning, and a bit of luck.
A quote applicable to this topic is: "A boat can always remain safe in harbor, but that's not what is was designed for..."

malyea · May 15, 2014

braol said:
A wave's height need only be about 30% of a boat's length in order to potentially capsize it (per research cited in "Storm Tactics" book). Even a 50' boat can be capsized by only a 16' wave...under the right circumstances. It all comes down to preparation, passage planning, and a bit of luck.
A quote applicable to this topic is: "A boat can always remain safe in harbor, but that's not what is was designed for..."

Which is why lying ahull - as a storm tactic - is the last thing you'd ever want to do...according to John Kretschmer, Sailing a Serious Ocean. Great book!

H27 Not Offshore, but Coastal?

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