H-38; head oder in aft stateroom: sanitation hose replacement

[EdFin]

2005 H-38, we get a horrible 'holding tank' smell in our aft cabin after we flush, which us being over 40yr old... happens through the night and isn't enjoyable! Opening the access panel on aft bulkhead into aft swim step lockers, does not reveal any smell!!!??? SO... assuming it's the hoses, have to do the rag smell test though. So I'm looking to replace sanitation hoses from toilet to tank; tank to macerator. Hope to replace pump out and vent hose ... IF accessible.
Looking for knowledge, experience input from any and all who have any insight on this please!
1) How can I get to the vent line? I've looked and barely see a glimpse of it. I've been looking for vent filter but can't get eyes on anything in that regards... hoping someone has a trick of the trade I'm missing to get to it.
2) Has anyone replaced these hoses, and can tell me what I'm in for? Length needed? I got 16' to tank, and 12' tank-macerator from Marlow-Hunter. Hose seems to go straight from toilet through bulkhead, disappears and assuming down or behind the port-locker, and see them at the foot of bed. So it seems as if it's nearly a straight shot, and seems similar for tank to macerator.
3) Hose recommendation. I know Peggy says about Shields Poly-X, but that's how I'm leaning. I know it only "SAYS" lifetime guarantee... so maybe that's 20yrs? I'm going for as long as possible, and would think if only 1 brand offers this, I'll try to go that way (probably about $200 more?). I also lean towards Poly-X due to the good flexibility claims; again unless there's a relatively straight shot where Trident 101/102 would work? In this...S**** situation, I'll pay a little more, if I never ever have to go through this again, and makes it easier to install in regards to flexibility.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

If permeated hoses are the source of your odor problem, you won't solve it by replacing only the ones that are easy to access...and the pumpout hose is usually the worst offender. If you don't have easy access to the it and vent, create better access to 'em.

Hopefully, the reason you can't find a vent line filter is because there isn't one. If there is, do not replace it. Instead increase the vent line to 1" and replace the "vent" thru-hull with an open bulkhead or "mushroom" thru-hull.
16' from the toilet to the tank is more than twice as far as most toilets can move bowl contents in the amount of time anyone will spend pumping a toilet or leave their finger on the flush button, which leaves waste sitting in the head discharge hose. If the tank discharge fitting is at the bottom of the tank, waste sits in it all the time...so it's little wonder the hoses stink! If you really want to do this right, you'd totally redesign the whole system to put the tank a LOT closer to the toilet and the macerator pump. We both know that's highly unlikely, though.

3) Hose recommendation. I know Peggy says about Shields Poly-X, but that's how I'm leaning.

Shields "lifetime" warranty notwithstanding, 10 years is the average working life of any hose because over time rubber and plasticizers dry out, allowing the hose to become hard, brittle and prone to cracking.
I prefer to go with track records instead of warranty length. Trident 101/102 Trident #101 Sanitation Hose Trident #10 2Sanitation Hose have been on the market for more than 20 years without a single odor permeation reported failure. It just has one disadvantage: it's as stiff as an ironing board, making it necessary to insert inline radius fittings anywhere it has turn tighter than about 15 degrees. Average price for 1.5": $7-8 ft.
Raritan Saniflex Raritan SaniFlex hose has been on the market close to 10 years now, also without a single odor permeation failure....I've yet to hear of any either, and as active as I am online I know I would have. So flexible it can be bent like a hairpin without kinking. 1.5" can be found for < $10/ft

If it were my boat, I'd go with the Raritan...but But if you want to pay $15-18/ft for 1.5" to get a "lifetime" warranty, it's your money. Whichever you choose, it's not necessary to use it for the vent line...you can get away with Shields or Trident flex PVC #148 for it.

Fwiw, my book includes some tricks that can make it a lot easier to replace hoses that pass through hard to access places....you might consider getting a copy if you don't already have one.

 

[EdFin]

Peggy! Thank you so much for a reply ''from the source''!
Book on order... just awaiting arrival
"create better access" ... you mean without a sledge-hammer? That aft 'sugar scoop' doesn't give access between tank and hull where the vent goes. During pump out I can hear/feel the air being sucked into boat... so I'm assuming there's free flowing movement... I tried to find the filter to remove it per reading your previous posts on the subject. I can't even figure out how to remove the Hunter OEM chrome fitting on the exterior, it has a flat disk in the middle of the opening... I tend to break things that don't move freely, so I've been proceeding s-l-o-w-l-y !!
I don't even think I could remove the tank from it's original position, let alone move it closer to the head. These new "luxurious" designs have tank aft, stateroom w/ hoses running underneath, then the head. Bought the boat 1.5 yrs ago; and was assuming the way the owners used it very little that waste was sitting in the lines. When we bought it we use it nearly every weekend, and ensure to flush 1-2 bowls of clean water before leaving for the week. The initial "welcome aboard smell" has greatly subsided since buying it, but the damage I'm sure has been done!

Excellent point on 10yr typical lifespan due to plastic/rubber drying out! Never read that point... that helps deter from Shields "lifetime" theory!! I also leaned that direction due to flexibility, that I've read positive postings about. However, I'll look up Raritan SaniFlex. Shields is on sale at $14ft on 'go2marine' but still puts me around $400, worthwhile IF... it's done with for very long time, I don't mind paying extra if I can, for quality once-and-done fixes. BUT... you raised another good point opposing Shields.
THANK YOU!

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Boat builders are the WORST sanitation system designers/plumbers on the planet! It never seems to occur to most of 'em that--unlike fuel and water--sewage has to be managed, not just held...and that sooner or later hoses will have to be replaced. Hopefully Hunter will be able to tell you how to access the vent thru-hull without taking a sawzall to the boat...'cuz you'll need access to replace the hose on the existing one and the thru-hull. As for moving the tank...would you completely oppose the idea of leaving it there and putting a new one in a better location? The cost of a new tank would be offset by the reduced cost of a lot less hose! If you're open to that idea, I'll be glad to help you work out the details.

Defender has 1.5" SaniFlex for $9.99/ft. I don't know whether sbo.com carries it, but it can't hurt to ask if they can get it and come close to matching that price.

 

[EdFin]

I worked on aircraft in the Navy; boat and aircraft engineers all need to be hit on the little toe with a hammer! None of them have ever put any thought into how a serviceable component will be accessed by a normal person with only 1 elbow!
I have to take a few minutes more and look for that darn vent, but it appears as many boats the tank was put on place, then the deck... but... there had to be a way they connected the vent. I really don't see how the tank would even come out of the lazarette opening. Problem with '05 Hunter is they sold in '12, so new Marlow doesn't have much info on the older models, go figure Hunter didn't transfer that info in selling the company???? But they were able to dig up the lengths needed (owners manual seems to have every other length of anything, size and diameter of any thing else except sanitation plumbing) so they may be able to provide some luck.
For now the tank will have to suffice, and shouldn't be too bad once I sort these issues out.
Oddly enough... I tried to look into Shields about this 'lifetime warranty', and can't find any company info on them. I read a previous post you replied to somewhere... a good point is that while you may get reimbursed for the hose, if it permeates, you're still out your time! You'd think with such a warranty, you would hope to not have to endure the job for a longer time than other competitors. BUT... your best point I think is; the plastic/rubber is going to and will eventually dry out.
Will check that Saniflex and shop around on it.

Thank you! Your replies are greatly appreciated!

 

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[shemandr]

I agree about the tank being put in before the deck was put on. I'm nearly sure that's the way my 356 was done and I believe it is SOP for Hunter and other builders. There was no way my holding tank was coming out of the lazarette whole. I never did change to a larger vent hose because the thru hull was so inaccessible. As far as I could tell you would have to take down the liner in the aft cabin and I couldn't see a way to do that (Or maybe I was afraid I wouldn't be able to reassemble it).
"I tend to break things that don't move freely..."
Yeah, I'm a hammer guy too. One smack ...two smacks ...smack it harder ... get a bigger hammer ... break it!

 

[EdFin]

I just emailed Marlow-Hunter asking about it, and if there's something I'm missing. While they took over in 2012, they still have some-little achieved info on previous year models. They got back to me about the length of hose needed which is nice to know before hand instead of pulling out then measuring to order.
I agree the obvious solution seemed to via the aft bulk head...but I as well couldn't figure it out. Not without cutting a new access hole into the wall! I was wondering about pulling the head liner down, my mechanic said it's possible just need a tool of some sorts, forget what, to put it back in. But I'm afraid doing stuff like that will result in it never ever never going back in correctly and/or looking as if it was never removed, it'll be obvious it was removed. As Peggy stated it'd be needed to replace pump-out and vent hose, but I'm not seeing it happen either. Will be sure to post anything helpful in response from Hunter

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

A clean new access hole, nicely trimmed with a removeable cover (can be secured with velcro), is the right way to go here.

 

[seadaddler]

On my 36 and 356 the rear bedroom bulkhead wall there is a removable panel and
the panel removes and access to the holding tank plumbing and wondering if you can remove part of the back bulkhead maybe some screws holding it in rather than messing with the head liner.
Hunter does not put vent filters from factory but I did add a vent filter to stop nasty odor coming out the vent at the stern when pumping the head.
Nick

 

[quadrille38]

If you have to take the headliner down a plastic putty knife is a commonly used tool.
You can use it to open the channel that holds the liner in and then use it to push the liner back in


I don't have access to my 38 right now as its wrapped for winter so I can't offer you any insights on the tank or vent. But I have been pretty far down into the port side transom locker where the holding tank is located.
I did go to schematic drawings for the 38 on the MH site and while they show vent and tank location it's not really detailed enough to help you much.

 

[Ken13559]

On my h326 the rear berth bulkhead is made of 3 panels that can be fully removed (some effort) to reveal the fuel and holding tanks. I believe these tanks can come out via rear berth.

 

[John T1594]

I had a similar smell problem with my 2000 H340. Your comment about the smell after flushing reminded me of our situation. In addition to the tank input, output and vent hoses, the top of our holding tank had a plastic device to monitor the tank level. On more than one occassion, I found a small (1/4") broken unused vent tube on the sensor head provided by the manufacturer and also found voids in the caulking surrounding the head of the sensor. Sealing these problems completely solved my transient odor problems. My head hoses were still old and likely permiated to some degree but the "puff" of smell at flushing could be a sign of an air leak in the holding tank.

 

[thubbard84]

I had the same issue with smell in the aft cabin on my Hunter 36. The "problem" was a leaking macerator pump. The 4 brass screws on the backside of the pump snapped off inside the pump due to freezing temp. Every time we pumped the head, the backside of the pump would leak a small stream of $%&#. Get a flashlight and take a good look at your macerator pump to see if there is any staining or dark colored trails under it. If that's the case, replace the macerator with another pump that has S.S. Screws (older models had brass). Clean the bilge the best you can with a cleaning solution before installing the new pump.

 

[SEMPERAVANTI41]

I just had a brass screw snap in half and cause a leak on the Jabsco Mascerator installed on my 2007 41DS. Only it wasn't freezing that caused the problem, the boat is in Florida. It occurred after I operated the mascerator. My guess is the small diameter of the brass bolts fractures when torque is applied when the pump operates. I also have the same problem on my other boat located in New York. I am replacing the mascerator with a Seaflow maserator, which while made in China, comes with a 4 year warranty. I don't know how it can be worse than the Jabsco, but I guess I'll find out. I also purchased the S/S bolts which Jabsco sells as a replacement part. I think it is unbelievable that Jabsco knows this is a problem, and that it could potentially sink your boat.

 

[thubbard84]

It will 100% "STINK" your boat

 

[karellen]

We recently acquired a 356 that had a bad odor. It was obvious that the original Jabsco macerator had been leaking for a long time as there was a stream of black water from the pump to the bilge.

Not sure if the 38 is similar, but on the 356/36, the macerator is level with the bottom of the holding tank, so the "stew" sits in the pump 24/7. I'm sure this leads to a much short life of the pump. When we replaced, I relocated it to the aft side of the rear bulkhead.

 

[shemandr]

...the macerator is level with the bottom of the holding tank, so the "stew" sits in the pump 24/7. I'm sure this leads to a much short life of the pump. When we replaced, I relocated it to the aft side of the rear bulkhead.

And in mine there wasn't a shut off at the tank which made replacing that pump un-fun. Relocation was a good idea.

 

[Ron20324]

.....the "stew" sits in the pump 24/7. I'm sure this leads to a much short life of the pump. ...QUOTE]

IIRC, the common practice is to flush out the tank, and then a good rinsing out with water- which will flush out the macerator. Close the thruhull, which should trap the water in the macerator. Stew being left in the blade area will harden and freeze up the motor .

 

[quadrille38]

And in mine there wasn't a shut off at the tank which made replacing that pump un-fun. Relocation was a good idea.

On my 2008 38 the macerator is located under the floor in the aft cabin near the door that goes from aft cabin to the head. There is a shut off valve located between the tank and the macerator immediately in front of the pump. It is also valved at the through hull.

Of course here in the Great Lakes it is illegal to discharge overboard so valve is always closed and macerator has never been used.