Gremlins

[All U Get]

Hi all,
While on a return leg of our 2-week cruise we had an unexpected event. We set out from Gloucester, Ma at 0500 in fog and quiet seas. After five hours of sailing toward Portland, Me we started to take on water. There was little wind and we had been under power with one foot swells coming from the southeast as we headed northeast.
I had just been below for drinking water for my wife and I and didn't see or hear anything unusual. Seeing the water I went to the manual pump in the cockpit and pumped for a moment while keeping an eye on the water which was several inches deep floating the carpet. I went below and turned our electric bilge pump on manual and could hear it operating. The water level seemed to be getting worse so I called the CG and we put on our lifejackets. I went back to hand pumping and my wife turned toward the Isle of Shoals which were to our west.
Between pumping, answering the radio, and checking all seacocks, it seemed like twenty minutes or so of intense brainstorming and effort. A local lobsterman had pulled along side to assist if needed, and soon thereafter the CG had two boats on either side.
The water had stopped coming in somewhere in the course of this excitement and by the time the boarding member came onboard there was just the carpet draining into the bilge. We began an intense search of all compartment, moving all that stuff we packed for summer use and three weeks at sea. The results, nothing...nada...zippo...nyet. So OK captain what do you want to do? Zero water to 4 or 5 inches in seconds, then nothing. We continued to shore, Portsmouth, NH to get hauled.
Because of the tides and a fixed bridge we moored one night then got it in to a marina in Newington and had it put on stands. No holes or damage. My only thought, Z%&#!@ ($) :bang:. What is the chance it was the electric bilge siphoning back into the bilge while we're under power and had less than 5 degrees of list?
We're out for the year, I'm having it trucked to the house to do all the projects we have on our list.
All U Get
The picture is the spinaker we added this year, it worked great.

 

[Winkfish]

Was it fresh water? Maybe a leak from your fresh water tank? When it ran out, no more water into the bilge. Maybe the faucet or a valve got stuck open?

 

[kloudie1]

Does the boat have a mechanical shaft seal on the propeller shaft instead of packing? They can pop open and leak a LOT under power and then pop back closed and leak very little .. Usually, a leak in other things won't heal themselves.. Other places I'd be suspicious of would be a seawater pump for the sink, and the water lift muffler and hoses. (oh yeah.. don't forget the cockpit drain hose connections at the thru hull. A friend's O'day 290 leak a lot when under power and moving over 5 knots, but not when motoring slower or sailing.) I'd be interested in hearing what you find .

 

[All U Get]

Was it fresh water? Maybe a leak from your fresh water tank? When it ran out, no more water into the bilge. Maybe the faucet or a valve got stuck open?

Well I tasted it when the CG came aboard, salty with a bit of SAE 10W30. I checked the shaft seal and it was doing the usual few drips a minute while under power. My ports for bilge and cockpit are about 8-10 inches above the water line and I don't know if a wave covered them at that instant. That's why I wondering if it could siphon against the electric pump.
All U Get

 

[Winkfish]

Well I tasted it when the CG came aboard, salty with a bit of SAE 10W30. I checked the shaft seal and it was doing the usual few drips a minute while under power. My ports for bilge and cockpit are about 8-10 inches above the water line and I don't know if a wave covered them at that instant. That's why I wondering if it could siphon against the electric pump.
All U Get

I don't think a rogue wave would back up against the electric bilge pump, at least not for as long as it seemed to do. Your cockpit drain I think would just be by gravity, not connected to the bilge pump. If so, I'd check the hose connections from the cockpit drains to the through hull ports, like Kloudie said.

 

[All U Get]

I don't think a rogue wave would back up against the electric bilge pump, at least not for as long as it seemed to do. Your cockpit drain I think would just be by gravity, not connected to the bilge pump. If so, I'd check the hose connections from the cockpit drains to the through hull ports, like Kloudie said.

As soon as it gets home I'm jumping in the rear storage area access panel and I'll post what I find. I spent the afternoon making a spot for the boat so that it's near the back door. I just hope I don't stare at it all winter wondering "if".
All U Get

 

[Old Skool Neil]

All U Get,
Two questions:
Did you reduce speed any time during this episode?
Do you have pedestal steering?

I'm leaning toward the rudder tube shipping water aboard as the stern squats under power. More power = more squat = more water. Reduce speed = less squat = less water. All crew in the cockpit contributes to the squat as well.

 

[Maine Sail]

That's why I wondering if it could siphon against the electric pump.
All U Get

Three possibilities:

1 - Bilge Pump Hose:

Yes most definitely! My guess is that you were producing a decent stern wave and back siphoned through your bilge hose. This is why all bilge pump exits should have a siphon break and high loop if there is even the slightest chance the exit could go below water. A high loop alone will not prevent siphoning. I have seen many C-30's without a high loop and without a siphon break. Your electric pump may not have been able to over come the reverse siphon and just began cavitating. Check this while motoring at or near WOT while producing a large stern wave.

2 - Cockpit Scupper Hoses:

Also check your cockpit scupper hoses!. One could be cracked and leaking only under a stern wave or heeling. Check these while motoring at or near WOT while producing a large stern wave.

3 - Rudder Stuffing Box:

Check this while motoring under WOT while producing a large stern wave.


Why did you haul soooooo early????? Lots of good "season" left..

 

[Cayennita]

In my J-36 while racing downwind at a fast clip and a large stern wave, the floor boards starting floating. We found no leaks and no broken hoses, drains, etc.
The culprit was the stern ladder. The two short legs that have the rubber tips were pushed through the stern. I did not notice that the rubber tips were damaged and the SS tube had made holes. We used underwater putty and solved the problem

 

[RichBone]

If it's a problem that only happens when you're moving then you'll likely not find the answer by hauling and you'll have the same problem next year.

Rich

 

[All U Get]

Thanks for the responses. We were making 5.5 knots under power so the stern wave is quite possible as we were gliding down the swells. I decided to pull the boat because there wasn't a clear reason for the leak inside so I suspected every possibility. I did get a look under the quarter-berth and didn't see any evidence of water from the drains, but I'm not ruling that out. I got to check the bilge hose for length and siphon break. We've had this boat for six years without incident so I've never dug around in the aft compartment. If it doesn't have a siphon break, are there some available?
Thanks again for the responses.
All U Get

 

[Ed Schenck]

Did you determine if the water on the cabin sole was from the bilge? In other words were the voids filled first and then the carpet began to float? That's a tremendous amount of water. I ask because my cabin sole was covered but it was from above.

We fought this water problem for awhile, only while motoring and while flat or on a slight port tack. It was the muffler, about six pin holes. You cannot imagine how much water that thing can pour into the boat!

On starboard tack the water found its way into the bilge and was pumped out. But on port tack it would run under the bulkhead into the bottom of the starboard cockpit locker. Then it would go forward and come out under the galley cabinetry all over the cabin sole. You would swear we were slowly sinking. But pull up the bilge hatches and just the normal couple of inches. Took awhile to find the water source because it was spraying and you could not really see it.

 

[All U Get]

Hi Ed,
I thought about that too. When I looked at the mufler we had already changed course. The shaft had already sprayed water around the inside of the engine compartment so everything was wet. I would think there would be some signs of exhaust somewhere on the muffler or hose. I'll be checking it out, thanks.
All U Get

 

[Don12364]

Toilet Overflow?

This puzzles me too.
Just a thought - toilet overflow. If the rim of the pan is below water level and someone forgot to put the small lever in the correct position - and there was something in the valve - then it can overflow.

But it sounds as if the quantity of water you had aboard was many gallons so several of the offerings, including this, do not seem very likely.

The only time I had water over the floorboards was when I was aground in my slip and used full astern to pull through the mud. The stern gland was a Deep Sea Seals type (carbon face seal) and the astern power dragged the engine backwards on its mounts and this forced the collar of the seal along the propshaft. Then, when I went ahead the seal was 1/2" apart and it only took half an hour of motoring to flood the boat.
First I noticed was when I looked down into the cabin I saw my new sailing shoes come floating towards me.

 

[RAD]

It was the bilge hose cause the very same thing happened to a friend right after taking delivery on his 88 Catalina 30 and while offshore with following seas the exact scenario happened and after a call to Catalina they said there was/should be a siphon break on the discharge hose and there was none

 

[Roger Long]

I heard portions of your drama on the radio. I'm glad it wasn't a hole.

My vote would be for the bilge pump back siphoning because it stopped as soon as you did. If your outlets are above the waterline, as they should be, the siphon will drain out as soon as you slow enough to let the water level drop below the through hull.

Siphon breaks are on my "someday" list but my through hulls are quite high above the water and almost clear at full speed. If I do take on water, stopping to assess will be the first thing I do. That also rules out things like an exhaust or raw water system leak (might not fully stop but will slow when the pump is not driving them anymore).

 

[All U Get]

It was the bilge hose cause the very same thing happened to a friend right after taking delivery on his 88 Catalina 30 and while offshore with following seas the exact scenario happened and after a call to Catalina they said there was/should be a siphon break on the discharge hose and there was none

I heard portions of your drama on the radio. I'm glad it wasn't a hole.

My vote would be for the bilge pump back siphoning because it stopped as soon as you did. If your outlets are above the waterline, as they should be, the siphon will drain out as soon as you slow enough to let the water level drop below the through hull.

Siphon breaks are on my "someday" list but my through hulls are quite high above the water and almost clear at full speed. If I do take on water, stopping to assess will be the first thing I do. That also rules out things like an exhaust or raw water system leak (might not fully stop but will slow when the pump is not driving them anymore).

I'm going to give the boat a good going over for any connections and especially the siphon break. My plan of having a good trip to entice my wife on having longer cruises may have suffered a setback. Her friends have already been stirring the pot and I might get cooked. Time for "Plan B".
All U Get

 

[John Howitt]

was the head accidentilly left in the wet position?

 

[Rick486]

Hi all,
While on a return leg of our 2-week cruise we had an unexpected event. We set out from Gloucester, Ma at 0500 in fog and quiet seas. After five hours of sailing toward Portland, Me we started to take on water. There was little wind and we had been under power with one foot swells coming from the southeast as we headed northeast.
I had just been below for drinking water for my wife and I and didn't see or hear anything unusual. Seeing the water I went to the manual pump in the cockpit and pumped for a moment while keeping an eye on the water which was several inches deep floating the carpet. I went below and turned our electric bilge pump on manual and could hear it operating. The water level seemed to be getting worse so I called the CG and we put on our lifejackets. I went back to hand pumping and my wife turned toward the Isle of Shoals which were to our west.
Between pumping, answering the radio, and checking all seacocks, it seemed like twenty minutes or so of intense brainstorming and effort. A local lobsterman had pulled along side to assist if needed, and soon thereafter the CG had two boats on either side.
The water had stopped coming in somewhere in the course of this excitement and by the time the boarding member came onboard there was just the carpet draining into the bilge. We began an intense search of all compartment, moving all that stuff we packed for summer use and three weeks at sea. The results, nothing...nada...zippo...nyet. So OK captain what do you want to do? Zero water to 4 or 5 inches in seconds, then nothing. We continued to shore, Portsmouth, NH to get hauled.
Because of the tides and a fixed bridge we moored one night then got it in to a marina in Newington and had it put on stands. No holes or damage. My only thought, Z%&#!@ ($) :bang:. What is the chance it was the electric bilge siphoning back into the bilge while we're under power and had less than 5 degrees of list?
We're out for the year, I'm having it trucked to the house to do all the projects we have on our list.
All U Get
The picture is the spinaker we added this year, it worked great.

This brings back a memory for me. I was underway in my previous boat, a Pearson 39 yawl, on the way to Boothbay. we were just outboard of Isles of Shoals when I noticed a large amount of water in the bilge, which I check often underway. We were sailing on starboard tack in a light SE breeze. I tasted the water immediately and it was salty. Much as you did I turned on all the pumps and closed all the sea cocks and the water promptly drained out and did not recur. Long story short, I worried about this constantly my entire cruise until it occurred to me that I had just used the head sink to shave before I noticed the water and it turns out that the sink outlet from the shower sump was a couple of inches above the waterline but submerged on starboard tack and it back-siphoned. There was a high loop and siphon breaker, BUT it was old and clogged up. Lesson is, when you have siphon breakers, which we all should, they do need cleaning on a regular basis or they become useless.

 

[Maine Sail]

There was a high loop and siphon breaker, BUT it was old and clogged up. Lesson is, when you have siphon breakers, which we all should, they do need cleaning on a regular basis or they become useless.

My favorites are made by Scot Pump in Florida. The one for my engine has 3k hours and works flawlessly with not a single drip. I flush it seasonally..