Great Lakes Starter Boat

higgs · Jun 22, 2012

Macs are lightly built boats. Compare their rigging, spars, and hardware to a Cal, Catalina, Hunter, C&C, etc. I was asked what I mean by offshore and I would include a lake Michigan crossing of 50 miles or more as offshore. I would take a Mac across the lake if the weather was stable. I would not feel safe, however, pounding , under sail, into Lake Mich 7 footers for 10 hours in a Mac. I would be very concerned about something breaking as those boats are not as heavily built as the boats I mentioned above.

anchorclanker · Jun 23, 2012

I would not want to be out there in anything that wasn't blue water rated. A NOAA weather buoy recorded a wave 23 feet in height. There is an unverified report of a 100 footer. Between the cold water and storms that can blow up out of nothing and become small hurricanes, you need to be on your game. Its not just a lazy inland lake.

Sail123 · Jun 23, 2012

I only mentioned Macs because someone suggested them and I owned one. I know they are built for coastal ocean use, but I would have reservations about venturing into bad weather sailing one of them.

Kind of off the subject, the way I approached my Mac quality wise was the fit and finish on the cabin hasp latch. It was the first thing you see looking at the sailboat, and the zinc hardware was put in place like a kid putting a lock on a tree house. The hasp was mangled into a shape that worked, but one would never use the word craftsman to describe the labor involved attaching the hasp. I at first figured it was just my boat and some PO did it. Then I started noticing all the macs were locked up with hasps bent into odd shapes and improperly mounted.

If the factory cannot properly install a cabinet hasp in the right way, what assurance other items are craftsman oriented?

The first thing I looked at on my CM32 was the locking hasps. Stainless steel, and none of them mangled into position. Likewise other hardware and rigging looks good.

I do like some things about macs, but I personally would not look to owning one again. It was a boat that got me back into sailing again, so for that I am grateful I owned one. It was fun and easy to sail on my small lake. Could not fancy being in one with rough storm conditions.

Hulls on the X & M models are almost cardboard thin. Sides push in almost like a Tupperware bowl. Would not want to ram a dock very many times with a hull that flexible it would seem to me. Where the light weight construction does become a plus, is in loading the boat on a trailer and heading off down a highway.

Because of the outboard motor arrangement used on later models, to use as power boats, people are trading in the 50 hp engine it came with, and installing big motors. One guy has a 140 hp engine. A local guy here has a 115 hp.

This changes the boat from a sailboat to a power boat that also sails, it would seem to me.

Our yacht club president owns a Mac. 14 years. Just purchased a Hunter. Says he enjoys the higher head room.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 23, 2012

Sounds like a good methodical effort! Don't underestimate the importance of your gut reaction, either. The boat should also just look good to you! The problem that many people have (I put myself in this catagory) is that when they find something that really pleases the eye, shortcomings are too easily ignored.

I wouldn't discount a tall rig if you find a boat that otherwise meets all your desires. Lake Michigan is also known for predominenty light summer breezes. Once you learn about reefing, you will be comfortable even when the wind gets strong. You can have a greater range of flexibility if you had a tall rig ... and a third reef point.

dlandersson · Jun 23, 2012

Makes sense to me...I generally don't go out any time the waves are greater than 3 feet.

higgs said:
Macs are lightly built boats. Compare their rigging, spars, and hardware to a Cal, Catalina, Hunter, C&C, etc. I was asked what I mean by offshore and I would include a lake Michigan crossing of 50 miles or more as offshore. I would take a Mac across the lake if the weather was stable. I would not feel safe, however, pounding , under sail, into Lake Mich 7 footers for 10 hours in a Mac. I would be very concerned about something breaking as those boats are not as heavily built as the boats I mentioned above.

dlandersson · Jun 23, 2012

FYI, a nice article about buying sailboats on Ebay in this months "Good Old Boat"/.

Rock_Elgin said:
A lot of great information on this thread! I really appreciate the wisdom and experiences that have been shared. It certainly appears this is not going to be as "easy" as I thought. It's so much more than GM vs Ford (though I intuitively knew that from the get go).

I now have several key points to look at thanks to this group. I'm looking for the longest (>= 30'), widest (>= 10'), heaviest boat I can find in my price range with an inboard diesel, more than 6'-0" of headroom in the salon, a capsize ratio of less than 2.0, sound mechanicals (roller furling, boom vang, etc.) with sheets running to the aft cockpit and a wheel instead of a tiller. Modern electronics and a gimballed galley stove are definite plusses. A tall rigged vessel is probably too much to bite off for a first purchase. I need to do some additional research on other as aspects including the basis of a comfort ratio and the mathematical relationships between the boat geometry and the areas of the fore- and mainsails.

My spreadsheet is going to become much larger.....

Rock

anchorclanker · Jun 23, 2012

Rock_Elgin said:
I now have several key points to look at thanks to this group. I'm looking for the longest (>= 30'), widest (>= 10'), heaviest boat I can find in my price range with an inboard diesel.

Rock

I would want less beam.

higgs · Jun 24, 2012

The crux of this discussion is what do you plan to do with your boat. Day sail and short cruises? You don't need much. Cruise the lake from top to bottom - you want a boat that will take it. If you spend enough time to cruise the entire lake, you are going to get hit by a big storm sooner or later. Be ready and make sure your boat is tough enough to take 60 kts.

tkaser3210 · Jun 25, 2012

I don't mean to be disrespectful of anybody who has posted to this inquiry, but much of this thread seems to be much to-do about nothing.

Any boat someone chooses as a "starter" boat will be a compromise, unless the buyer has unlimited financial resources. In my mind, there are two basic ways to approach owning a boat.
1. I want to sail
2. I want to own a boat
They're not necessarily the same thing.

We started sailing Lake Michigan out of South Haven Mi 25 years ago on a Catalina 22 with a wing keel. Cat 22 is a great boat to learn on. We made lots of mistakes, sailed in weather that was over our head, etc, but learned to sail.

We still sail out of South Haven, and have owned a Potter 19, O'Day 222, and now a Hunter 26. Certainly none are blue water boats, but were/are suitable for the big lake, with appropriate caution and common sense. I am not interested in sailing across the lake, but we do cruise within 10 - 12 miles or so of shore.

We have seen some awe inspiring weather in our 25 years of sailing. Michigan is not a body of water to be trifled with. Pop-up Summer thunderstorms can bring sudden winds of 25 - 40 knots, and waves of 6 - 8 feet are not uncommon.

My advice would be to set a dollar amount yo are willing to spend on the purchase, and an amount you would be willing to spend on re-conditioning and updating, and but buy the most boat you can comfortably afford. However, don't rule out boats in the 25 - 30 range. Just make sure part of your resources are spent on safety (dependable radio, dependable motor, quality life jackets, solid lifelines. roller furling, etc) and go out and sail when conditions permit.

Be sensible and conservative, and have a ball!

Scott T-Bird · Jun 25, 2012

Milwaukee to Door County is a pretty good run, and it sounds like you want your boat to be capable for all kinds of cruising options. It sounds like you are on the right path.

I think there are some different schools of thought with regard to width of beam. If you go back to that Cruising Resources web page, you can get some more insight into this.

A wider beam will normally provide more initial stiffness (resistance to heeling) but it also tends to have a poorer ride in rough weather, less handling capability and slower recovery from a knockdown. Most experienced sailors might prefer a narrower beam for the smoother motion, the better handling, and more secure recovery in the event of knockdown. The angle of heel isn't a concern for many because they learn to feel secure even at 30 to 45 degrees!

You will quickly learn that sailboats are all about compromise! For every feature you like, there is an opposing compromise. A beamy boat has that initial stiffness, the interior room, and wider decks on top (which is a nice feature for safety as well). Modern boats tend to be beamy because most people are buying boats for the interior space. Racers also find beamy boats to be faster due to the characteristics of the hull that I can't really explain. Maybe because they sail more upright, which leaves the sail plan more vertical ... which is better for speed.

Our boat has a wide beam, but the topsides sweep inward fairly dramatically, which means that the width at the water line is narrow. She is initially tender (prone to heeling easily), yet when she goes to greater than 15 degrees she stiffens up significantly. So even looking at the beam width doesn't always tell the whole story. Obviously, there are compromises with every design feature. We have nice wide decks and some nice interior room. Our hull is designed to make her a nice handling and speedy little pocket cruiser. But there is little room beneath our berths for tankage. Our tanks are fairly small, which is also a function of the hull design.

I doubt that you will ever find that boat that provides the perfect fit for all your desires. I doubt anybody ever has. But it's fun looking! In the end, though, you will figure out which compromises you are willing to make to get close to everything you want. You'll have to if you ever want to find that boat that is going to get you out on the water!

dlandersson · Jun 25, 2012

Which brings us back to the Mac - enclosed head, galley, 4-6 people, trailerable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAyG1NXUlYE

Rock_Elgin said:
Day sails and short cruises. Probably not much more than an occasional Milwaukee to Door County run. I tend to be "over insured" so I appreciate the warnings and concerns. I want safety first with as much comfort as possible.

I am curious about the narrower beam remark. My wife and I are not much into heeling at this point and thought the wider beam would help with both issues. Not so?

Sail123 · Jun 25, 2012

dlandersson said:
Which brings us back to the Mac - enclosed head, galley, 4-6 people, trailerable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAyG1NXUlYE

That is a great video. Roger MacGregor is a great salesman!

I now have an inboard diesel, yanmar. Great engine, but in the middle of Nebraska, you try finding a marine diesel shop. I can tell you, this whole state has none. Zero.

The idea of a powerful fun boat that can be serviced anywhere is a real plus.

All sailboat owners should watch that video. I suspect most Mac owners are having fun with their boats that the rest of us can only shake our heads at.

I almost purchased a Mac X, but a football game spoiled it. Lol. Long story.

If you have a small child somewhere inside you that likes to come out and play sometimes, watch that video. Hunter also made a power sailor.

higgs · Jun 25, 2012

You do not need an offshore boat to sail L Mich as was somewhere suggested. If you are going for a Mil to Door County cruise bigger is better for comfort and speed. Those 30 mile hauls between ports, often under power, can be long. It was a shot from Racine to Port Wash that got me caught in one of the worst storms I have ever seen. 30% chance of storms that day and when it hit it hit fast. If your gonna cruise you have to go on the 30% days or you will never go. Eventually you will get hit.

If you are going diesel, I would recommend nothing less than a 2 cyl, and lean strongly to a 3 or 4. Cruising the Great Lakes is 50% motoring. 10 hours of motoring will wear on you if you have an engine that gives a lot of vibration and noise. Don't even consider a single cyl anything. It is over 100 miles from Mil to Sturgeon and it is quite commen to motor the entiore way.

dlandersson · Jun 25, 2012

Would that be because there are like 200 people in the whole state?

Sail123 said:
I now have an inboard diesel, yanmar. Great engine, but in the middle of Nebraska, you try finding a marine diesel shop. I can tell you, this whole state has none. Zero.

dlandersson · Jun 27, 2012

Ok, is this a serious post? Or is this like my Admiral, who jokes that we have our Mac in case an asteroid hits lake Michigan and we can ride out the resulting tsunami? :neutral:

anchorclanker said:
I would not want to be out there in anything that wasn't blue water rated. A NOAA weather buoy recorded a wave 23 feet in height. There is an unverified report of a 100 footer. Between the cold water and storms that can blow up out of nothing and become small hurricanes, you need to be on your game. Its not just a lazy inland lake.