Great Lakes Starter Boat

MSN-Travelers · Jun 18, 2012

Rock_Elgin said:
I'm looking for advice on a good starting cruiser for the Great Lakes (Milwaukee). I found a Catalina 27 I like but there's a Hunter 26 that looks interesting, as well. A Pearson 30 is in the mix, too.

Thoughts?

Rock Elgin

I started with a 26 footer based at McKinley. After a year and a half, my wife declared we needed a bigger boat. Daysailor ... get anything. Mutli-day cruising ... get the biggest boat you can afford to own in Milwaukee. We are currently base at SSYC on the city's south side and managed a little over 830 nm last season.

Condition can be quiet interesting if things have been blowing a while from any directions N thru S (off the lake) and it can take days for things to settle down. Milwaukee Bay has a lot of chop when winds are NE thru SE and the waves rebound off the breakwall.

I suggest you look at a minimum 30 footer. The waves can be a little close together on Lake Michigan and comfort will be found on a 30+ foot boat. My wife and I find that 35-36 foot is about where our comfort level is for boat handling when it is just the two of us. I have very little problem with our current boat when solo although docking in a NW - N wind can be tricky.

You might begin with the end in mind. This is where somebody asks ... where do you plan on keeping the boat?

higgs · Jun 18, 2012

[Current? The P-30 has that full length keel. The fin keel on the P-31, some say you can fly it in the current (and I tend to believe that).]

I think you are mistaking the P30 for the old Alberg designed Pearson Triton that had a full keel. The P 30 is a fin keeled club racer/cruiser from the 70s.

pogo2 · Jun 19, 2012

I own a Newport 30 and sail on Lake Erie, The bigger boat is definatly an advantage in the rougher seas, came back from a trip to Erie Pa got about 6 miles outside of Buffalo Ny 8' following seas, 38 mph winds, thunder, and that sparky stuff, oh yeah rain. NO place to hide, If you sail the lakes you can expect to get caught atleast once or more times in your life time.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 19, 2012

Cal-Jensen boats are known for sturdy construction and performance oriented sailing. That would be a nice boat to own (the one advertised in Milwaukee) despite its lack of modern amenities. It all depends on the condition. The engine is a drawback and a replacement diesel would cost you well more than the boat itself. How are the sails? How are the spars and rigging? How are the decks and coach roof (any softness - rot in the core)? What needs to be done down below to make the boat livable? Does the head smell and will you need to make the plumbing a project? Are the cushions too grungy to salvage? The boat is dated for sure and your inclination might be to dive in and turn every aspect of the boat into a modernization project.

If you are willing to spend money on the boat, you could make her into something but if you want something that is ready to go, and comfortable, it could be far more economical to buy a modern boat at a higher price, I think. It's hard to judge what you would do with a boat like that.

Some people would take that boat and sail her just as she is, with old, worn sails, running rigging that is ages old, the bare necessities for control lines and hardware, and a cabin that looks and smells like it was last done in the 70's. If you did the bare necessity in making sure the standing rigging and spars are safe and the engine runs well enough, you could get by with smaller costs. It might be a true starter boat that you sink the least amount of money into for a few years before moving on.

If you were to make that a project boat, you could spend well over $20,000 in upgrades to rigging and hardware and countless hours and money in cosmetic improvements. You could figure on at least $5,000 for sails, and a replacement diesel could be north of $10,000. You could do all this and earn a ton of knowledge about how you like to set up and sail a boat, you would have invaluable knowledge about the mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems in a boat .... and after spending all that time and money, you would probably learn a great deal about what you would love to have in a new(er) boat. You would probably live with that boat for 10 years or more while the project takes that long. But you would never recover any of the money that you sink into it because you could make all those improvements for (tens of) thousands and still only be able to sell it on the market for less than $10,000.

Or you could probably spend a lot less money overall and find a much newer, floating condo of a boat, that sails nicely too.

RobertLangdirect · Jun 19, 2012

higgs said:
[Current? The P-30 has that full length keel. The fin keel on the P-31, some say you can fly it in the current (and I tend to believe that).]

I think you are mistaking the P30 for the old Alberg designed Pearson Triton that had a full keel. The P 30 is a fin keeled club racer/cruiser from the 70s.

Ah, yes. Thanks for noting that. You are correct.

Ken Honeycutt · Jun 19, 2012

I would say it depends on what you plan on doing as far as sailing. If you plan on making trips across the lake then the 30' would be my choice. If you're just going to sail within a few miles of home than a smaller boat would work fine. i sailed an o'day 19' daysailer for years on lake michigan and enjoyed the heck out of it but never got more than 6 miles offshore. Sailed my 36 Hunter 20 miles offshore and got caught in a gale for 4 hours before finding a safe harbor. Main thing is what your SO is comfortable spending time on if you don't want to spend most of your time sailing alone.

higgs · Jun 19, 2012

I would be quite concerned being caught in a gale in a 19' daysailor. Actually, I would be concerned in any boat, but I do think the Catalina or the Pearson would be good bets to get through.

dlandersson · Jun 20, 2012

Ken & Higgs both make excellent points. From a cost perspective, a Mac 26X is hard to beat, has a galley, a enclosed head, can sleep six, has a roomy cockpit and can shift from sailing to motorboat if the conditions start to look bad. Hard to beat going 20 mph when you want to get in in a hurry (or tow kids on tubes).

Having said that, A Mac26X will not point as well as a dedicated sailboat.

higgs · Jun 20, 2012

The M 26 is probably a good inland lake boat offering a lot of versitility. It will work on the Great Lakes if you stay close to shore. If you cruise the Great Lakes long enough you will eventually get into conditions that will lead to gear failure on a lightly rigged boat, like the M 26.

higgs · Jun 21, 2012

The Catalina 30 was a very popular boat and have stood the test of time. I have found aft cabins in boats this size too small and too hot to be of much use.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 21, 2012

CC stands for center cockpit. The Coronado looks interesting if you are looking at that one offered in Bayfield. Center cockpits have some appeal because they often have roomier interior layouts. Personally, I don't find them attractive until the length of the boat is over 40'. The cockpit looks too high and centered, making the boat look a little tubby. But those are personal preferences. Besides that, the boat looks old and dated, the sail inventory looks meager and I bet the sails are baggy and worn. It might be worth a look. I think that you might find it to be too much of a project and the expense of the project might be very high.

The Irwin, if it is the one offered in Kenosha, looks very interesting. It looks clean, well-maintained and loaded with nice features. The key to a good value is to find a boat that is loaded because the seller will never get the money back for what they spent to improve it. It also sounds like it has some very nice built-in features ... hot water shower in head with good room, gimballed stove, teak cockpit table .... adding those things into a bare-bones boat is very expensive and time consuming.

I would be looking very seriously at the Irwin 31'. She is a very attractive boat and a solid performing boat with very nice sailing characteristics. The engine looks like a Yanmar 2GM and they advertise that it is freshwater-cooled with heat exchanger for hot water. I think the boat is a little under-powered with that engine, but you don't have currents to worry about. Keep in mind that the engine is almost 30 years old, so you want a mechanic to check her out. A replacement will cost north of $10,000 if you go new.

If the engine is as clean as the boat looks, I think she would be an excellent boat for cruising Lake Michigan. Keep in mind that the condition of any of the boats you look at is at least as important as the manufacturer ... probably more important.

dlandersson · Jun 21, 2012

Not that I'm sailing off to hunt down the great white whale, but what do you consider 'close to shore"?

higgs said:
The M 26 is probably a good inland lake boat offering a lot of versitility. It will work on the Great Lakes if you stay close to shore. If you cruise the Great Lakes long enough you will eventually get into conditions that will lead to gear failure on a lightly rigged boat, like the M 26.

Siamese · Jun 21, 2012

Here's another thing to consider. Over here on the other side of the lake in Muskegon, if Lake Mich is too rough, we have a five mile long inland lake to sail on. So over here, anything 22 feet or better is fine, because you have your pick of where to sail based on conditions. I sailed for a decade or so with a Grampian 26, which served me well.

On your side of the lake, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't have a big inland lake to play on (that's connected by channel to Lake Mich). With that in mind, a boat in the 30 foot range may serve you better.

I would not get hung up on seeking a particular brand or model. I'd look at every 30 I could find in my search radius, and then explore the pros and cons of the boats the pique my interest.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 21, 2012

Taking a closer look at that Irwin, I would be all over it ... assuming the deck core is solid and no big issues, this looks like a perfect fit and it's seems ready to sail. Is it in the water? Do you have a slip?

Scott T-Bird · Jun 22, 2012

Looking at capsize ratio and motion comfort, the numbers don't tell a very good story. Capsize ratio is over 2.0 (under 2 is considered safest) and motion comfort is also low. These may be important issues for you. Keep in mind that these are ratios and the numbers may not tell the whole story. A modern Catalina 31 does have a greater displacement.

http://cruisingresources.com/Irwin_31_Citation

Other reviews seem to indicate that Irwin may not be the best build quality as far as stoutness ...

I also didn't see a furler, but if you negotiate the price based on the absence of a furler, it may be a plus because you can add the one you like most.

The boat does look very clean ... it doesn't hurt to look into this one.

Sail123 · Jun 22, 2012

MacGregor is mentioned as a possible choice for the Great Lakes sailboat.

I owned a Mac 25, and sold it to someone on the Great Lakes. He traded a 32' because he wanted something he could easily trailer himself.

If working from a trailer is something you are looking to do each time you sail, a Mac may be up your alley. Several models leave the ballast in the lake when you drive out of the water, reducing your trailer weight. Some models double as power boats being able to pull a skier. The power macs will also let you to some degree, out run bad weather by switching from sailing to power boating almost instantly and make a run for safe harbor like no traditional sailboat can.

Size wise, the macs are small and cramped. In mine, I had to walk around below bent 90 degrees at the waist. My pants kept falling off.

I now have a Clipper Marine 32 Center Cockpit and am very happy with the extra room Mine can still be easily trailered by two people in about an hour each way, but we slip ours 9 months of the year.

Walk up and down docks and look at boats. Talk to people. Your boat should choose you.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 22, 2012

I think it's funny when people say things like that ...

about escaping bad weather on Lake Michigan. I once watched a wind line come around Windy Point in Racine that came down on a bunch of power boats that were helpless to get to shelter even though they were within a few miles of the harbor entrance. A boat at 15 to 20 MPH top speed (don't forget that you need to empty the ballast to do that

) is no match for a storm bearing down on you at 60 MPH.

Besides that, there are very few coves on that side of the lake to duck into. Most of Lake Michigan's western shoreline is exposed beach broken up by rock groins and jetties with no shelter and you don't want to be driven into any of those structures unless you don't mind destroying your boat and risking your life.

Great Lakes Starter Boat

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