The Dept of Natural Resources and Division of Watercraft will not allow overboard discharge of gray water in Ohio inland lakes and resevoirs. All gray water must be contained on the vessel. There has been minimal enforcement of these provisions however if enforced, what are my options for gray water storeage?
- Status
You've gotten bad information
With the exception of two exceptionally pristine lakes--Lake George in NY and Lake Winnepesocky (would someon PLEASE give me the correct spelling for it?) in NH, there is nowhere in the US where it's necessary for privately owned recreational vessels to hold gray water (galley, bath and shower water)...only "black water" (sewage--"human body waste and the waste from toilets"). If you've been told differently by any law enforcement person, he's wrong. It's not unusual...black water is a rarely used term for sewage, but people who've heard it easily confuse it with gray water. Or they think the term "no discharge" applies to ALL discharge--sewage AND gray water...which is NOT the case. So don't worry about it. I can guarantee you that it's legal to discharge your gray water overboard.
With the exception of two exceptionally pristine lakes--Lake George in NY and Lake Winnepesocky (would someon PLEASE give me the correct spelling for it?) in NH, there is nowhere in the US where it's necessary for privately owned recreational vessels to hold gray water (galley, bath and shower water)...only "black water" (sewage--"human body waste and the waste from toilets"). If you've been told differently by any law enforcement person, he's wrong. It's not unusual...black water is a rarely used term for sewage, but people who've heard it easily confuse it with gray water. Or they think the term "no discharge" applies to ALL discharge--sewage AND gray water...which is NOT the case. So don't worry about it. I can guarantee you that it's legal to discharge your gray water overboard.
Lake Winnipesaukee
Winnipesaukee is an Indian name that means "Smile of the Great Spirit"...... Hey.... I've been to both lakes numerous times and they seem like 2 really nice places, and I never knew they had a 'gray water' rule. Why are they the only ones in the whole HUGE country that have the rule or for that matter are allowed to enforce it, have other places tried and failed? I find it hard to believe that they are the only ones, even though being a New Englander I am a little proud of the fact. (No Lake George is not technically New England but its close enough and anything anywhere close to the Adirondacks is beautiful in my mind)
Winnipesaukee is an Indian name that means "Smile of the Great Spirit"...... Hey.... I've been to both lakes numerous times and they seem like 2 really nice places, and I never knew they had a 'gray water' rule. Why are they the only ones in the whole HUGE country that have the rule or for that matter are allowed to enforce it, have other places tried and failed? I find it hard to believe that they are the only ones, even though being a New Englander I am a little proud of the fact. (No Lake George is not technically New England but its close enough and anything anywhere close to the Adirondacks is beautiful in my mind)
Gray water in Lake George ?
Several years ago I bought a H28.5 that had been sailed for 5 years on Lake George. The bottom had never been coated with anything but wax, and was still as glossy as the gel coat. It did have a couple of jugs to catch the gray water from the galley sink and the head sink. Through-hulls were capped ! Never could understand however if the law was that severe how it was acceptable that the boat was equipped with a Y-valve that allowed straight discharge (no macerator) of the holding tank into the lake. I re-installed hoses to the through-hulls, but had to cap the one from the holding tank, allowing only pump-outs. And that it still very much enforced in my area.
Several years ago I bought a H28.5 that had been sailed for 5 years on Lake George. The bottom had never been coated with anything but wax, and was still as glossy as the gel coat. It did have a couple of jugs to catch the gray water from the galley sink and the head sink. Through-hulls were capped ! Never could understand however if the law was that severe how it was acceptable that the boat was equipped with a Y-valve that allowed straight discharge (no macerator) of the holding tank into the lake. I re-installed hoses to the through-hulls, but had to cap the one from the holding tank, allowing only pump-outs. And that it still very much enforced in my area.
Gray Water Storeage - Additional Information
This restriction is part of the dock lease agreement..."Watercraft containing a sink, toilet or sanitary system shall not be used, operated or docked on any state lake unless such sink, toilet or sanitary system is removed or sealed or made to drain into a tank or reservoir which can be pumped or carried ashore for disposal". Marina operator claims this is a State requirement.
This restriction is part of the dock lease agreement..."Watercraft containing a sink, toilet or sanitary system shall not be used, operated or docked on any state lake unless such sink, toilet or sanitary system is removed or sealed or made to drain into a tank or reservoir which can be pumped or carried ashore for disposal". Marina operator claims this is a State requirement.
I suspect it's a case of...
Marina operators not understanding the meaning of "no discharge" if they claim it's a state requirement...because it's not. However, marinas are private property, and can make their own rules, so you may be stuck with it. But I'd get a copy of the state law they claim requires it, and if necessary get a written clarification of any ambiguous language, before I'd make any expensive modifications to my boat. Several years ago I ran into a similar problem on a small Corps of Engineers lake here in GA. The resource manager had decided that the prohibition against disposing of galley WASTE overboard included galley WATER, and was insisting that all the boats had to have to gray water tanks in addition to holding tanks. I had to all the way to the district HQ in Mobile to find someone who knew the difference between garbage and dishwater and could set him straight. However, for the moment, it appears you may be stuck with it unless you want to find another marina. On a boat the size of yours, a 2-5 gallon jug under the sink may be the best solution. You don't have to do more to the plumbing than than disconnect the hose from the thru-hull and stick it in the jug.
Marina operators not understanding the meaning of "no discharge" if they claim it's a state requirement...because it's not. However, marinas are private property, and can make their own rules, so you may be stuck with it. But I'd get a copy of the state law they claim requires it, and if necessary get a written clarification of any ambiguous language, before I'd make any expensive modifications to my boat. Several years ago I ran into a similar problem on a small Corps of Engineers lake here in GA. The resource manager had decided that the prohibition against disposing of galley WASTE overboard included galley WATER, and was insisting that all the boats had to have to gray water tanks in addition to holding tanks. I had to all the way to the district HQ in Mobile to find someone who knew the difference between garbage and dishwater and could set him straight. However, for the moment, it appears you may be stuck with it unless you want to find another marina. On a boat the size of yours, a 2-5 gallon jug under the sink may be the best solution. You don't have to do more to the plumbing than than disconnect the hose from the thru-hull and stick it in the jug.
Peggy -??????
Peggy I am concerned with your instructions to hook up a grey water tank "all you have to do is disconnect the hose from the thru hull and stick it in the tank..." First of all I would make sure that the thru hull is closed. Secondly I would either connect a hose with a plug in the end or wire the thru hull shut to avoid an accidental opening. This is a boat sinking situation that must be done with utmost care for safety reasons. Ideally remove the thru hull and fill in the hole with a new layup.
Peggy I am concerned with your instructions to hook up a grey water tank "all you have to do is disconnect the hose from the thru hull and stick it in the tank..." First of all I would make sure that the thru hull is closed. Secondly I would either connect a hose with a plug in the end or wire the thru hull shut to avoid an accidental opening. This is a boat sinking situation that must be done with utmost care for safety reasons. Ideally remove the thru hull and fill in the hole with a new layup.
Lakes George and Winnipesaukee
Thanks for the correct spelling...I don't think I've ever gotten it right before! Both lakes are non-navigable. Both are contained entirely within the borders of their respective states and are neither is under any federal jurisdiction--i.e. Corps of Engineers. That means the state or local governing body can pretty much write its own rules for 'em--and they did, at least 20 years before even any thought had been given to enacting anything like the Federal Water Pollution Act of 1977. Both lakes are exceptional pristine and local authorities were determined to keep 'em that way, so each of 'em passed local laws requiring prohibiting ANYthing from going into the waters...I'm not even sure it's legal to spit in 'em! Because there was 100% support and no opposition from the locals, the local laws governing discharge on both those lakes were allowed to be "grandfathered" into later state legislation. So, Claude...the boat you brought from Lake George that had direct discharge toilets was definitely illegal on Lake George. When they say "no discharge" there, they mean NO discharge. The previous owner just managed to get away with it by having a gray water tank...if he had a tank, authorities didn't question whether everything went into it. I suspect he redirected his toilet overboard to eliminate odor problems.
Thanks for the correct spelling...I don't think I've ever gotten it right before! Both lakes are non-navigable. Both are contained entirely within the borders of their respective states and are neither is under any federal jurisdiction--i.e. Corps of Engineers. That means the state or local governing body can pretty much write its own rules for 'em--and they did, at least 20 years before even any thought had been given to enacting anything like the Federal Water Pollution Act of 1977. Both lakes are exceptional pristine and local authorities were determined to keep 'em that way, so each of 'em passed local laws requiring prohibiting ANYthing from going into the waters...I'm not even sure it's legal to spit in 'em! Because there was 100% support and no opposition from the locals, the local laws governing discharge on both those lakes were allowed to be "grandfathered" into later state legislation. So, Claude...the boat you brought from Lake George that had direct discharge toilets was definitely illegal on Lake George. When they say "no discharge" there, they mean NO discharge. The previous owner just managed to get away with it by having a gray water tank...if he had a tank, authorities didn't question whether everything went into it. I suspect he redirected his toilet overboard to eliminate odor problems.
What state are you in, Dick?
I want to check the state law your marina operator claims requires gray water holding.
I want to check the state law your marina operator claims requires gray water holding.
Welll, DUH, David! 
My point was that a jug under the sink is the simplest PLUMBING solution--and makes far more sense, especially on a small boat, than plumbing in a "real" gray water tank. I gave him--and anyone else reading it--credit for having enough sense to close the seacock before disconnecting a hose from a thru-hull. Since all seacocks should be kept closed when not actually in use anyway, whether to wire it closed and/or put a plug in it depends upon whether the owner feels he needs a safety backup. However, I wouldn't even consider recommending removing the thru-hull and glassing it over to solve a temporary problem. For one thing, he has trailerable boat...it's likely that he'll take it to other places where he can reconnect the sink discharge hose to the thru-hull. For another, it's highly likely that the owner of a 25' boat will want to move up in a few years, and there's no guarantee that a trailerable boat will remain on the same waters. And with all that in mind, the simplest way to do it would be a y-valve in the sink drain, with a hose on one side that goes into the jug to use only when necessary. And yes, the seacock should be closed when the jug's in use.
My point was that a jug under the sink is the simplest PLUMBING solution--and makes far more sense, especially on a small boat, than plumbing in a "real" gray water tank. I gave him--and anyone else reading it--credit for having enough sense to close the seacock before disconnecting a hose from a thru-hull. Since all seacocks should be kept closed when not actually in use anyway, whether to wire it closed and/or put a plug in it depends upon whether the owner feels he needs a safety backup. However, I wouldn't even consider recommending removing the thru-hull and glassing it over to solve a temporary problem. For one thing, he has trailerable boat...it's likely that he'll take it to other places where he can reconnect the sink discharge hose to the thru-hull. For another, it's highly likely that the owner of a 25' boat will want to move up in a few years, and there's no guarantee that a trailerable boat will remain on the same waters. And with all that in mind, the simplest way to do it would be a y-valve in the sink drain, with a hose on one side that goes into the jug to use only when necessary. And yes, the seacock should be closed when the jug's in use.
Grey Water Uses
Since you will be collecting a lot of grey water in your sink jug you need to think of how to get rid of it or what to use it for. My guess is that this water will contain a lot of residual soap and will be suitable for washing your deck. Since there is no law against washing your deck (???) this is a good way to get rid of it. Think about what these laws are saying, do not discard organic food scraps and soaps in the water....every year millions of pounds of leaves and pine needles and other matter from the surrounding woods lands in the lake, whats a few hundred pounds of carrots and lettuce? Then there are all the fish and their excrement and rotting dead bodies. All the pristine cottages around the lakes with the beautiful green lawns have owners spraying them down with defoliants, adding limestone, bug killers, and all sorts of horrid chemicals that wash right into the lake. Then the people washing their cars and the soap run off from that. These laws targeted at select groups do nothing constructive, if they want a clean lake it needs a comprehensive set of laws effecting all possible sources of contaminants (don't forget acid rain either). As a scuba diver I am horrified by what I find underwater but it isn't food scraps it is beer cans, soda cans, bottles, old tires, license plates, sunken ships, you name it, but I've never once seen food scraps. You know i bet the animals in the lake eat them. The best approach would be to get a watermaker, and run the grey water thru it to get fresh water for the tanks and a sludge to put in a garbage bag for disposal ashore. As a manufacturer of the toilets for the space shuttle and space station you'd be surprised what you can do with waste products if you have a lot of money. Cheers Peggy just busting you. Dace
Since you will be collecting a lot of grey water in your sink jug you need to think of how to get rid of it or what to use it for. My guess is that this water will contain a lot of residual soap and will be suitable for washing your deck. Since there is no law against washing your deck (???) this is a good way to get rid of it. Think about what these laws are saying, do not discard organic food scraps and soaps in the water....every year millions of pounds of leaves and pine needles and other matter from the surrounding woods lands in the lake, whats a few hundred pounds of carrots and lettuce? Then there are all the fish and their excrement and rotting dead bodies. All the pristine cottages around the lakes with the beautiful green lawns have owners spraying them down with defoliants, adding limestone, bug killers, and all sorts of horrid chemicals that wash right into the lake. Then the people washing their cars and the soap run off from that. These laws targeted at select groups do nothing constructive, if they want a clean lake it needs a comprehensive set of laws effecting all possible sources of contaminants (don't forget acid rain either). As a scuba diver I am horrified by what I find underwater but it isn't food scraps it is beer cans, soda cans, bottles, old tires, license plates, sunken ships, you name it, but I've never once seen food scraps. You know i bet the animals in the lake eat them. The best approach would be to get a watermaker, and run the grey water thru it to get fresh water for the tanks and a sludge to put in a garbage bag for disposal ashore. As a manufacturer of the toilets for the space shuttle and space station you'd be surprised what you can do with waste products if you have a lot of money. Cheers Peggy just busting you. Dace
Where does it go ashore????
You know I bet when you bring it ashore you dump it down a storm drain that drains directly into the lake, or maybe a septic tank that leaches the water into the soil surounding the lake which slowly seeps into the lake itself. Or maybe you drive it all the way home and pour it into the sewer system where it goes to a treatment plant where it gets mixed with all the sewage and when it rains overloads the systems and gets dumped directly into the river. You only have one choice, take up model rocketry and shoot it into the sun.
You know I bet when you bring it ashore you dump it down a storm drain that drains directly into the lake, or maybe a septic tank that leaches the water into the soil surounding the lake which slowly seeps into the lake itself. Or maybe you drive it all the way home and pour it into the sewer system where it goes to a treatment plant where it gets mixed with all the sewage and when it rains overloads the systems and gets dumped directly into the river. You only have one choice, take up model rocketry and shoot it into the sun.
Yep, those Ohioans(?) must have pristine lakes!
What do you know, there is a law against dumping grey water. See http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/odnr/watercraft/laws/opsguide/ohiovr2.htm. I'm no lawyer, but it sure looks like it's a law. The reasons not to move to Ohio are growing rapidly! (Just kidding)
What do you know, there is a law against dumping grey water. See http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/odnr/watercraft/laws/opsguide/ohiovr2.htm. I'm no lawyer, but it sure looks like it's a law. The reasons not to move to Ohio are growing rapidly! (Just kidding)
I found it...here's the exact wording:
"Except on Lake Erie, the Muskingum River and the Ohio River, no person shall launch, moor, dock, operate, or permit to be operated any vessel with a sink, toilet, or sanitary system capable of discharging urine, fecal matter, contents of a chemical commode, kitchen wastes, laundry wastes, slop sink drainage, or other household wastes into the waters in this state." The operative word is "waste," not water. (This is beginning to sound a lot like the same issue I had to deal with on Carters Lake). Since the boat doesn't have a garbage disposal, it's not capable of discharging any WASTE from the sinks, only dishwater "Gray water" is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as "galley, bath and shower water"...but there's no reference to shower or bath water above, only to galley waste. Since it's highly unlikely that any law requiring gray water to be held would exclude bath and shower water--2/3 of defined gray water--IMHO this does not constitute a requirement to hold gray water. It just depends upon whether you want to make an issue of it. However, I'd certainly go far enough to ask the DNR...and you're welcome to include my opinion in your request. I also plan to ask 'em...and argue the point if necessary.
"Except on Lake Erie, the Muskingum River and the Ohio River, no person shall launch, moor, dock, operate, or permit to be operated any vessel with a sink, toilet, or sanitary system capable of discharging urine, fecal matter, contents of a chemical commode, kitchen wastes, laundry wastes, slop sink drainage, or other household wastes into the waters in this state." The operative word is "waste," not water. (This is beginning to sound a lot like the same issue I had to deal with on Carters Lake). Since the boat doesn't have a garbage disposal, it's not capable of discharging any WASTE from the sinks, only dishwater "Gray water" is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as "galley, bath and shower water"...but there's no reference to shower or bath water above, only to galley waste. Since it's highly unlikely that any law requiring gray water to be held would exclude bath and shower water--2/3 of defined gray water--IMHO this does not constitute a requirement to hold gray water. It just depends upon whether you want to make an issue of it. However, I'd certainly go far enough to ask the DNR...and you're welcome to include my opinion in your request. I also plan to ask 'em...and argue the point if necessary.
Rules and regulations
Regarding Peggy's post, that said that waters entirely within a state are not a federal matter - I believe that's incorrect. It is an EPA matter. For example, from http://www.boatus.com/gov/discharge.htm, "NOTES: Under federal law, completely enclosed freshwater lakes are by definition "no discharge" zones. If they carry interstate traffic or allow access by canals, or locks, they are not and must apply to the EPA for the designation." jv
Regarding Peggy's post, that said that waters entirely within a state are not a federal matter - I believe that's incorrect. It is an EPA matter. For example, from http://www.boatus.com/gov/discharge.htm, "NOTES: Under federal law, completely enclosed freshwater lakes are by definition "no discharge" zones. If they carry interstate traffic or allow access by canals, or locks, they are not and must apply to the EPA for the designation." jv
John, you're both right and wrong
Under federal law enacted in 1977 (CRF 40 140.3), all non-navigable freshwater inland lakes, all inland fresh water rivers incapable of supporting commercial traffic, and any impoundments on navigable rivers designated as municipal water sources were designated "no discharge." The EPA didn't even exist when those regulations were written, nor does it have any jurisdiction over such waters contained entirely within the boundaries of a state. In fact, it's entirely up to the state to enact legislation enforcing the federal regulations set forth in CFR 40 140.3...the EPA isn't even in that loop. Even though the federal law was enacted in 1977, none of the states paid any attention to it until the mid-late 80s...and there are still a few states who haven't done it. GA was among the first, and our own deadline for installing holding tanks on all vessels on Lake Lanier was 1991! (All new boats delivered into the state had to have 'em by 1987). Even when it comes to declaring areas of navigable waters "no discharge," the operative phrase in your post is "...and must apply to the EPA for the designation." The state (or political subdivision thereof) is the one who decides whether a body of water contained entirely within its own boundaries should be "no discharge"...not the EPA. The EPA only approves (or not) the application. The EPA cannot demand such an application, nor originate one on its own. It's entirely at the discretion of the state, and enforcement is also 100% the responsibility of the state. The "no discharge" regulations on Lakes George and Winnipesaukee predate the Federal Water Pollution Act ("Clean Water Act") of 1977 by so many decades that the EPA is entirely out of those loops--and so are the feds. But there are other lakes that are also entirely out of the EPA, federal, AND state loops: those owned by power companies. Even though they may be on public land, the power companies built the dams and own the water rights...they're considered "private property" and the owners of private property can make any rules they want to. I know of several that don't even allow boats with toilets--with OR without holding tanks--on them. And it's perfectly legal. So while you're right that states must apply to the EPA for approval to change the status of a body of NAVIGABLE water, the EPA doesn't have any jurisdiction over any NON-navigable body of water contained entirely within the boundaries of a state. The state has full jurisdiction. Furthermore, even when it comes to navigable waters, the EPA makes no laws, nor does it even bother to determine whether the state's application is in fact accurate. If whatever the state puts in its application meets the federal guidelines, the EPA just rubber stamps it "approved" and that's the end of their involvement with that body of water.
Under federal law enacted in 1977 (CRF 40 140.3), all non-navigable freshwater inland lakes, all inland fresh water rivers incapable of supporting commercial traffic, and any impoundments on navigable rivers designated as municipal water sources were designated "no discharge." The EPA didn't even exist when those regulations were written, nor does it have any jurisdiction over such waters contained entirely within the boundaries of a state. In fact, it's entirely up to the state to enact legislation enforcing the federal regulations set forth in CFR 40 140.3...the EPA isn't even in that loop. Even though the federal law was enacted in 1977, none of the states paid any attention to it until the mid-late 80s...and there are still a few states who haven't done it. GA was among the first, and our own deadline for installing holding tanks on all vessels on Lake Lanier was 1991! (All new boats delivered into the state had to have 'em by 1987). Even when it comes to declaring areas of navigable waters "no discharge," the operative phrase in your post is "...and must apply to the EPA for the designation." The state (or political subdivision thereof) is the one who decides whether a body of water contained entirely within its own boundaries should be "no discharge"...not the EPA. The EPA only approves (or not) the application. The EPA cannot demand such an application, nor originate one on its own. It's entirely at the discretion of the state, and enforcement is also 100% the responsibility of the state. The "no discharge" regulations on Lakes George and Winnipesaukee predate the Federal Water Pollution Act ("Clean Water Act") of 1977 by so many decades that the EPA is entirely out of those loops--and so are the feds. But there are other lakes that are also entirely out of the EPA, federal, AND state loops: those owned by power companies. Even though they may be on public land, the power companies built the dams and own the water rights...they're considered "private property" and the owners of private property can make any rules they want to. I know of several that don't even allow boats with toilets--with OR without holding tanks--on them. And it's perfectly legal. So while you're right that states must apply to the EPA for approval to change the status of a body of NAVIGABLE water, the EPA doesn't have any jurisdiction over any NON-navigable body of water contained entirely within the boundaries of a state. The state has full jurisdiction. Furthermore, even when it comes to navigable waters, the EPA makes no laws, nor does it even bother to determine whether the state's application is in fact accurate. If whatever the state puts in its application meets the federal guidelines, the EPA just rubber stamps it "approved" and that's the end of their involvement with that body of water.
- Status