Gray water storeage

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Dick Bailey

Thanks for the research however....

if I stay within the "spirit" of the law what are my options: jugs under the sinks, seperate gray water holding tank, combined gray/black water tank or just dont use the sinks?
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

I haven't read the B/US text, John...

So I don't know whether they're wrong, or you've just interpreted it wrong. But (which happens a LOT). Got a link to it?
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

I wouldn't combine gray water and black water

On a boat the size of yours, I think a jug under the galley sink is your best choice. As for the "spirit" of the law...the only thing applicable to your boat that it seems to be concerned with preventing is discharge of greasy dishwater (galley water)...and since that's only animal fat or vegetable oil--not petroleum--it's no different from going swimming covered with suntan oil. There's certainly nothing you can put down the head sink that's a pollutant. I've e-mailed the OH DNR asking them for an opinion as to whether the law requires gray water holding. If I get a reply, I'll post it.
 
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John

I give up!

Peggy, The text was in my note, which you replied to. The link was also in my reply. Here it is again: http://www.boatus.com/gov/discharge.htm, "NOTES: Under federal law, completely enclosed freshwater lakes are by definition "no discharge" zones. If they carry interstate traffic or allow access by canals, or locks, they are not and must apply to the EPA for the designation."
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Sorry, I missed the link in your first post...

The misunderstanding is in your interpretation (which isn't helped any by their wording)...and why I said you're both right AND wrong. The states DO have to apply to the EPA to change the status of any NAVIGABLE waters, but not if the waters are NON-navigable and contained entirely with the boundaries of the state. Only if a non-navigable lake straddles a state line (Lake Hartwell between GA and SC is an example...state line runs through the middle of it), does it fall under federal jurisdiction, requiring EPA approval to make it "no discharge." (In fact, Hartwell became an interesting example when GA enacted "no discharge" laws...it was "no discharge" on the GA side, but not on the SC side for several years. GA solved the problem by just not bothering to enforce it on their side till both states got together and made a joint application to the EPA to make the whole lake "ND." ) However (and I think this where your misunderstanding lies) , by definition, navigable waters are never contained entirely within the boundaries of any state...by definition of "navigable" ("capable of interstate vessel traffic") either flow through more than one state or provide access to waters beyond the boundaries of a single state (i.e. Narragansett Bay in RI). That puts 'em under federal jurisdiction. Hence the need for EPA approval. So there are actually two operative phrases when it comes to whether the EPA even gets involved at all--the one I cited in the 2nd paragraph of my first reply, and "navigable." No EPA approval is required for non-navigable waters contained entirely within the boundaries of a single state.
 
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John

What misunderstanding?

I'm a bit confused by this dialogue. First, I didn't interprate anything, I just posted the BoatUS text. Second, you say that if the water is entirely within the sate, it's not an EPA matter, which directly contradicts the BoatUS text - hence my comment. It doesn't reall matter to me, except now I'm wondering if it would be better to hold the gray water than discharge it. Also, I think the Clean Water Act was 1972, not '77. jv
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

There's no ecological reason to hold gray water

All the pollutants in detergents, dishwashing detergents and soaps were removed more than a decade ago. And anything else that goes down the sink or shower drain is animal or vegetable--and therefore non-harmful too. "Second, you say that if the water is entirely within the sate, it's not an EPA matter, which directly contradicts the BoatUS text..." No, it doesn't. The B/US text refers to *navigable* waters, which by definition cannot be contained entirely within the boundaries of a state...they can only flow through it.
 
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Justin - O'day Owners' Web

An aside

I do not know what definition of navigable has been held sufficient to invoke EPA regulations, I defer to Peggie on that since her experience in the field has educated her as to the specifcs. However, for other purposes, it is important to note that the Supreme Court has held large lakes contained entirely within the confines of a single state to be navigable for purposes of establishing federal admiralty jurisdiction. I point this out not to correct the thread we're on, but to make sure we do not extrapolate from EPA controls to other issues. The controlling principle in some other areas we may run afoul of as sailors is whether or not the lake is susceptable to use in commerce. There is long and boring history here, devolving from interstate commerce clause cases regarding railroads contained entirely within one state. Now back to your regularly scheduled attempts to interpret over-regulation. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
 
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John

One more time

Here's the BoatUS text, for the third time: "NOTES: Under federal law, completely enclosed freshwater lakes are by definition "no discharge" zones. If they carry interstate traffic or allow access by canals, or locks, they are not and must apply to the EPA for the designation." It says: The first sentence refers to bodies of water that do not carry interstate traffic. The second refers to ones that do (IF THEY CARRY...). It never says "navigable."
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

The definition of "navigable" is

"capable of carrying interstate vessel traffic." (CFR 40 140.3)
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Which large lakes, Justin?

The lake itself may be entirely within the boundaries of a state, but if it's possible for interstate vessel traffic to pass through it, whether through locks or other means, it's still considered part of a "navigable interstate waterway." There are a number of lakes on the Tennesee and Cumberland Rivers that meet that criteria. A non-navigable body of water is one that does not provide any ingress or egress from it except from a launch ramp or travel lift.
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Btw, Justin...

"Now back to your regularly scheduled attempts to interpret over-regulation." And that IS exactly what we're trying to do here! :))) Funny (or maybe I just have a warped sense of humor after 15 years in the marine potty biz) story: A couple of years ago, the legal beagles in the regional EPA office in Atlanta decided that "navigable" meant any body of water onto which there is ANY access for vessel traffic...even launch ramps. So I asked 'em why there'd be any need for "no discharge" regulations on a lake if there's no vessel access to it--no way any boat could be floated on it. That question stumped 'em. But it STILL took a legal opinion from EPA in Washington to get 'em to back down. Our tax dollars at work.
 
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Justin - O'day Owners' Web

Different Definitions for different purposes

Peggie, there are different definitions depending on what we're talking about. That's why I posted. You are absolutely correct that navigable in the context of the acts you've been discussing requires interstate traffic. My comment was only to point out that if someone in another arena, then the different possible interpretations of navigable could result in very different results from different courts. Of course, that's always a risk. Imagine that you set off from the dock on a beautiful day, and an unforseen thunder-cell sinks hits your boat and you lose control and run into another boat. If you are in strictly state waters, you will be seriously liable. If you are in admiralty waters, however, you may be able to limit your liability to the value of your vessel. Kinda. Anyway, I'm tired but there are lots of ways to limit liability in admiralty that are not available in state courts, for the most part. To admirarlty, navigable means simply suitable for use by vessels. Court decisions have extended that defintion from its orginal useage, meaning tidal waters, to its current usages which more or less requires that the vessels be engaged in commercial use. The case in particular I was thinking of had to do with a ferry on a lake in I think Texas. Its late here and I don't have the citation handy, but I could look it up if anyone other than me is interested. The rational had to do with railroading and goes more or less like this - I don't necessarily agree with any of it. The gov't has the right to regulate interstate commerce. That includes the right to regulate interstate railroads. Then a case said that the gov't could regulate the use of a railroad that went interstate, even if the particular route being regulated didn't go across state lines. Then the Court said, ok, even if the railroad track doesn't connect outside state lines, we're still going to let the federal government regulate it because it might have an impact on interstate commerce. Remember, eventually the Court took this clause to prohibit the owner of a grill from refusing to serve people of color. Now I agree that people should be entitled to basic necessities regardless of the color of their skin, but using the commerce clause to get there is a stretch. So, we have the railroad history. We also have the constitutional grant of maritime jurisdiction to the district courts, sitting in admiralty. (Takes a few steps to get there, but hey I'm not writing a text book). So the Court expands the grant of admiralty jurisdiction from tidal waters to any navigable river going to the sea. Then the Admiralty Extension Act extends admiralty jurisdiction to the great lakes and rivers flowing to and from them. At this point essentially any river in the US is covered, as is any lake, as long as you can eventually get to either the great lakes or to the ocean. Then you get a series of conflicting cases to which I refer. Again, I'll do the research if anyone cares about it, but basically, the deal is that if the lake, river, whatever is wholly within a state, but have commercial traffic on it, the courts will probably extend admiralty jurisdiction to cover it. This is not yet black letter law, but its pretty strong authority. The logic is of course that it was ok to do this with railroads, so it must be ok here. For the most part, I think this is insane, although there are times as a commercial vessel owner you would rather be in admiralty court because of the limits on liability. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

You've opened a whole new can of worms, Justin

Laws pertaining to commercial ('inspected") vessels and "vessels for hire" (which may or may not be the same thing...it depends upon what kind "hire" use) are completely different in many cases from the laws pertaining to recreational vessels. Let's not muddy up the water (no pun intended)!
 
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