Golf Car Batteries and a big dohhhhh

jfssail · Mar 2, 2009

US Battery U2200

Scott, If the Interstate Battery Sams Club was handling was their U2200, then it was made by US Battery, same as their US2200 battery.
This summer I will be starting my 6th season with US Battery US 2200 batteries and they show no sign of deterioration . I rarely take them below 50% charge and while at the dock, they are 24/7 on charge with my Truecharge 40 charger. The past three summers they spend -8 weeks cruising Lake Huron.
The low price you indicate at Sams makes me doubt that they were Interstate U2200 batteries. I contacted US Battery a month back and they said their most recent batteries were priced at $96 each with most dealers still stocking older batteries with prices as high as $150 in mid 2008. Prices for lead have dropped in half since then. New US battery US2200 have a capacity of 232ah.

Jack S Stewart
1993 C36 #1233 "Windancer"
Port Clinton, OH

windward54 · Mar 2, 2009

I use US Battery 2200's as well. My last set were not quite 8 years old when I traded them in for a new set. I use four as my house bank. The batteries were just starting to show signs of their age, but still going strong. I didn't want to take a chance of failure and after 8 years, I figured I got my use out of them. New ones are on the second season and not problems.

jfssail · Mar 2, 2009

Scott, We plan on a Lake Erie circle this season, probably 5-6 weeks, spending a week at Presque Isle near Erie, Pa. Great protected anchorage there where some Flying Scot sailors will spend a few days with us. .Noticed your new avatar. Mine was taken at 12 mile Bay where we spent 3 days last summer.
Jack

William12213 · Mar 2, 2009

Hey Scott, I am heading up your way the first two weeks of July...I can throw a couple batteries on the boat for ya.

Hermit Scott · Mar 2, 2009

If you are shopping for deep cycle batteries, bring a scale with you. Compare batteries with the same amp hours and which ever one weighs more is the better battery.
The thicker the plates inside, the longer they will last.

Don S/V ILLusion · Mar 2, 2009

Long answer

"HYPE" is more prevalent in battery manufacturers statements than in any other area of marine equipment. Distributors and dealers add their own baldly exaggerated statements and just make things worse. You have to use your consumer skills and weed out the BS.

The "big" names in batteries are all about equal. Trojan, Exide, Interstate are the most common. Keep in mind there are only about six major manufacturers of batteries in the U. S. (at this time). Many of the batteries you see in stores are made by these and have "house" labels. Nothing wrong with that if you know how to evaluate what you're getting.

Plate thickness (of the Positive plate)
Automotive batteries typically have plates about .040" (4/100") thick, while forklift batteries may have plates more than 1/4" (.265" for example in larger Rolls-Surrette) thick - almost 7 times as thick as auto batteries. The typical golf cart will have plates that are around .07 to .11" thick. The Concorde AGM's are .115", The Rolls-Surrette L-16 type (CH460) is .150", and the US Battery and Trojan L-16 types are .090". The Crown L-16HC size has .22" thick plates. While plate thickness is not the only factor in how many deep cycles a battery can take before it dies, it is the most important one.
Take away message here is you need to be a smart consumer - simply checking a battery's weight is meaningless unless you carefully look at the specs to see what's inside.

For what it's worth, I have and found that, in my opinion, Trojan T105 or T125 golf carts are the best bang for the buck - you can certainly buy better but from where I sit, the extra isn't worth the additional cost.

Hermit Scott · Mar 2, 2009

I saw it in a Don Casey book. Don't thicker plates weigh more than thinner plates?

Maine Sail · Mar 2, 2009

Scott

Scott,

IMHO the Sam's Club GC2's are the best value going and they are half the price of the Trojan's. I used to buy Trojans exclusively but when they hit $160.00 ea I found alternatives.

I have mentioned this before but the boat we now own was cruised as a 24/7/365 on the hook live aboard for five years. The PO's rarely stayed in a marina so they were always on battery power. She is still equipped with a stock alternator and "dumb" alternator regulator and was during this five year cruise. The batteries that came with the boat when I bought it were the same batteries they began the cruise with five years earlier. The batteries were Wal*Mart deep cycles!!

24/7/365 use for five years straight is a LOT more use and abuse than you'll ever see especially with a "dumb" regulator..

Save some boat bucks and buy the GC2's from Sam's. I know a few guys with them up here and they have worked flawlessly. If you can't find a Sam's with any GC2's left the Crown's are also very good and are right up there quality wise with the Trojan's..

Hermit Scott · Mar 2, 2009

I did buy those walmart batteries, 125 amp hours for $78 just because I knew I would have no problem returning them.

Don S/V ILLusion · Mar 2, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
I saw it in a Don Casey book. Don't thicker plates weigh more than thinner plates?

As I explained Scott, the difference in plate size is small such that the gross weight difference is trivial. If it were that easy, everybody would just go out and buy the heaviest battery, right up until the mfgs figured out how to artificially weigh them down more.

Also, one caution regarding big box store batteries - it is somewhat critical to their lifetime how long batteries have been sitting on the shelves at warehouses so always verify the original label stamp (as opposed to what some distributors re-label them with).

Hermit Scott · Mar 2, 2009

I have probably damaged these anyway. They have been in the yard for 5 months, I recently put a 4.5 watt solar charger on them. They were down to 12.5 V when I checked yesterday. I brought them back with me and I am going to charge them and check them out. But for $160 I won't be too stressed if I have to replace them.
I don't know of any other way you can weigh down a battery more, except by putting more lead in it. From what I read, thick plates are what differintiate between a starting (car) battery and a deep cycle.
What are some other charachteristics to look out for in a quality battery? What else is there to a battery, electrolyte, anode, cathode? What else can they do to a lead acid battery to make it better than thicken the plates? We didn't cover this type of thing in depth in school. This is somehting you have to learn by asking guys like you.

Stu Jackson · Mar 2, 2009

Battery stuff???

Hermit Scott said:
What are some other characteristics to look out for in a quality battery? What else is there to a battery, electrolyte, anode, cathode? What else can they do to a lead acid battery to make it better than thicken the plates? We didn't cover this type of thing in depth in school. This is something you have to learn by asking guys like you.

There is something about repetition that gets tiresome.

We've been flogging the WM Advisors to you and those of the rest of you who read these posts for many years.

There's not much more to that than reading them and some books, like Calder's "Boatowner's Manual for Mechanical & Electrical Systems."

Sound familiar???

C'mon, Hermit, you've done great things with your boat and have shared a great deal of valuable information that is specific to major boat issues and document very well what you have been doing. That's great. I applaude you for it.:dance::dance::dance:

But there are some very basic things that don't change over time, and are useful to learn about without us having to retype the basics. I've learned over the years to either provide links or directions to those sources. I have and will continue to do so.

Battery 101 was among them. Here it is again: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...1/-1/10001/SelectingaMarineStorageBattery.htm

The rest is the "best buy" and that changes daily based on where you live and what stores are around you. You, of all the folks on this board, are the best in finding good deals.

Go for it!

Oops, forgot: www.amplepower.com - download and read the Ample Power Primer. Once you buy the batteries, you need to learn how to take care of them. Hmm, I must've mentioned this link before.

Buck420 · Mar 3, 2009

Re: Long answer

Don,

Your battery expertise is laudable. So, question...
What is your humble opionion of AGM's ? I have had 2 4D (AGM'S) for the past 6 years now. Their "no" maintainance to me makes them worth the price. When I finally need to replace them, is there an AGM brand or supplier that offers them at a lower price "a-la" Sam's Club?

Hermit Scott · Mar 3, 2009

I'm talking about comparing apples to apples here, not about debating agm vs. lead acid. I have read the battery basics, before I bought the batteries I have. I just don't see what else there is that's important. In threads on here we have seen people kill expensive batteries in a few seasons and we have seen the cheapest batteries available survive cruising for many years.
It's been stated here and on threads before, there are a imited number of battery manufacturers, while many different labels. Regarding the batteries that differ more than by name.....So really, what's the difference?

Don S/V ILLusion · Mar 3, 2009

Buck420 said:
Don,

Your battery expertise is laudable. So, question...
What is your humble opionion of AGM's ? I have had 2 4D (AGM'S) for the past 6 years now. Their "no" maintainance to me makes them worth the price. When I finally need to replace them, is there an AGM brand or supplier that offers them at a lower price "a-la" Sam's Club?

I think AGMs are excellent and have some advantages over wet cells in that they can take a charge faster, hold it longer and are obviously maintenance-free. You already know the downside - the cost. Like you, my son prefers AGMs and we have an on-going debate about which is the better bang for the buck. He is with you on the less-maintanence-is-better approach.

I know very little about AGM battery construction so can't give you any advice which is better or the best buy.

Don S/V ILLusion · Mar 3, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
I'm talking about comparing apples to apples here, not about debating agm vs. lead acid. I have read the battery basics, before I bought the batteries I have. I just don't see what else there is that's important. In threads on here we have seen people kill expensive batteries in a few seasons and we have seen the cheapest batteries available survive cruising for many years.
It's been stated here and on threads before, there are a imited number of battery manufacturers, while many different labels. Regarding the batteries that differ more than by name.....So really, what's the difference?

Hermit
Not sure what else to tell you that hasn't already been said. anyone can provide anecdotal stories of how their brand X batteries lasted many years - other folks may have totally opposite experience. If you want to go by any one individual's experience, so be it.

The difference in construction across the myriad of battery designs is jaw-dropping. The specs are readily available and are worth reading if you want to make an informed decision.

This is one purchase for which price usually follows quality - the better battery mfgs make products that cost more. With this as in may things, cheapest and best are mutually exclusive issues.

Before I run out of cliches, I'll stop and suggest you do as Stu suggested.

Stu Jackson · Mar 3, 2009

The difference is simple

Hermit Scott said:
.....So really, what's the difference?

The answer is: what is being sold on the market. You can study the guts of all batteries until the cows come home and will be no better informed than if you read Calder's book, as suggested.

There are a few different types of batteries and a handful of manufacturers.

The answer to battery longevity? Discussed in Ample's reference: treat them right, and get a good charger. That simple. Sure some get by with abuse, could be luck, could be good batteries, could be owners who don't know any better. Luck of the draw.

Do it right and you have a better chance of success - just like your new through hulls.