Getting Access to our boat bottom swing keel

[Seahorse24]

Our sailboat is a 24 foot Yankee Seahorse that was manufactured in 1972. In the sales brochure, they show the boat can be rolled 90 degrees to expose the stub keel above water by trying a rope to the top of the mast and pulling on it.

I'm wondering if this might be feasible for checking out the swing keel, or even getting to the swing keel to remove it. The swing keel weights 200 pounds. How much stress does this place on the mast and cables? Apparently, the boat was designed to do this. I eventually want to replace the swing keel rope with a stainless steel cable. So far, that swing keel is the only area of the boat we can't get to easily.

My son thinks we could cut through the fiberglass from inside the boat and easily get to the place where the rope connects to the top of the swing keel. We could then either make a removable cap from fiberglass along with a gasket, and secure the new cap with stainless steel bolts or simply patch the fiberglass cap back onto the hump that sticks up under one of the seats inside the boat.

The rope has been there for eleven years, according to the previous owner who changed it out when he had the bottom repainted. The swing keel pin was replaced also replaced then. The rope still works, but we can only see the part that wraps around the winch inside the boat. If we change it, I want to use a small diameter stainless steel cable that will last for 25 years.

Here is the link to the sales brochure where it shows the stub keel completely clear of the water.

http://www.dolphin24.org/images/yankee24bro.pdf

 

[David in Sandusky]

You rig is plenty strong to careen your boat as shown. Sounds like fun if you have a place, and the muscle power.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Seahorse 24 and Dave In Sandusky;
You know who I am. The boat was either manufactured in 1971 or 1972 for the model year 1972. It is now 2017. Therefore the boat is 44 or 45 years old. Nothing has been stated as to the integrity of the boat to include chain plates, rigging, age of line and so forth. Regardless what the brochure says, the fact that nothing has been said as to integrity given the age and replacement of shrouds, chain plates and so on would give me grave concern to suggest what you want to do. My suggestion is to lift the boat out of the water to repair knowing nothing of integrity of the boat.

 

[njlarry]

Agree 100%. If something gives someone could be hurt. They did that just to demo righting. Notice how far back the photographer was. I would not trust it while crawling around the boat working on the board and trunk.
Looks like a really great boat. I d be tempted to get a 60s vintage wagon to tow it like in the brochure.

 

[Seahorse24]

Thank you all for your comments. The boat is solid as far as we can tell, but that method of getting access to the swing keel may be too risky. I don't anyone to get hurt. I'll ask around and see if anyone in the area has a means to lift the boat high enough to work under it. If they do, they don't advertise it.

The other option my son came up with is to cut two inches off the top of the cavity the swing keel resides inside. that fiberglass cavity sticks up under one of the seats inside the boat. My son thinks we can either fiberglass the cut off section back together, or create a removeable access point by adding a flat fiberglass flange around the cap and base. We could then drill holes around the flange. Then make a gasket and use stainless bolts to clamp the two sections together. Had the manufacturer done this, it would have made easy access to the rope and clamp. We wonder why the manufacturer did not do this.

Below is a photo from inside the boat. One problem we may encounter is the top of this cavity might be below the water line. It is difficult to tell. I will try to figure out a way to measure it. If so then we couldn't do this with the boat in the water, which would be the easiest place to do the repair. The swing keel is up and in the wrong position when the boat is on our trailer. The clamp is way forward and cannot be accessed. I may be able to place the boat on a different type lift with the center open so the swing keep can be lowered, after the boat is raised.

The boat is currently water tight. There are no leaks in the hull. The boat had been in the water for seven years, when we purchased it. The bilge was bone dry. There is access to the bilge area. We can see the lowest point where any water would settle. The boat has a hand operated bilge pump. The water pickup area is right next to the swing keel cavity.

Here is my concern: If we cut this section off and then fiberglass it back together, will it still be solid enough to hold up in rough water. I can see where there might be a lot of water pressure applied to the top of that cavity when the boat is rocking back and forth. I don't want to do anything that might become the source of a leak later on. If that cap was to pop off, water could come gushing into the boat. That part of the hull is the thickest part of the fiberglass. That cavity may not be as thick at the top, but I'm guessing it must be at least a quarter of an inch thick, based on the width of the swing keel that resides inside it. The swing keel is almost two inches wide, and the external dimensions of that cavity is about four inches wide.

If this idea could work, it would make servicing the swing keel cable really easy, assuming we don't sink the boat in the process.

After a year of restoration work, we launched the boat last September 5th, and then immediately placed it on a lift. We then modified the lift, by adding an additional lift tank to get the boat higher out of the water. That worked well. We have had some high winds since and the boat and lift do rock a bit when it whitecaps, or when a big motor boat creates a large wake, but the whole setup appears to be extremely stable.

I hope to learn how to sail it this spring. I have replaced all of the other lines on the boat, with the exception of the swing keel rope. If that swing keel rope breaks, then we are operating in crisis mode to get it repaired. I like to plan ahead and fix things before they break and cause problems.

The previous owner before the previous owner we purchased the boat from, told my son not to worry about the swing keel rope. He sailed the boat for many years around Florida and the East coast and never had a rope break on him. His advice was to worry about it only if it breaks. He is over eighty years old now and no longer sailing, but he had sailed around the world twice, but not on this boat. He is the person who brought it here from the East Coast. The previous owner purchased it from him.

I am new to sailboats and learning things as I go. I appreciate all of the support I have received from members of this forum. I would not have made this far without your help.

Here is the link to our restoration blog: https://sailboatprojectorbust.wordpress.com/

 

[Sumner]

A suggestion...

If you open up the trunk consider making a box like shown above with a flange on it. Then make a lid and a gasket that would bolt to the flange. I'd make the box first and set it on top of the trunk and trace around the bottom of it and then make the cut. The flange for the lid could be much lower than shown above. It could be right at the peak of the present trunk. Just make sure it is wide enough to get in there to replace the line.

This is going to be some work but if there is room to do it where it needs to be done and you think it will serve you well down the line then do it,

Sumner
===============================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[David in Sandusky]

I defer to Crazy Dave!

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Not knowing this boat nor if the top of the centerboard box is above, at or below the water line can also be risky. I would advise not cutting into the top of the centerboard box or housing. One day you may want to sell that boat and I can tell you many will walk away seeing what you are proposing. Then if that cut out is made and fail, the time for a boat if sinking is substantially worse as you have less time to get the heck out of the cabin.

 

[Sumner]

I'm guessing the area you are talking about is the curved upper part of the truck. How close is the trunk to the seat and the sole? If it is tight I'd probably look for a different approach also.

If one is well versed in fiberglassing I'd have no qualms about them designing it for adequate strength. I would never worry about it popping off, but would suggest only undertaking the job if they were very confident. The area is so close to the waterline that water pressure there is minimum but as you mentioned can be greater if you are pounding into some waves.

Also as CD mentioned this could effect the resale, although I wonder how much with a boat that old and one might see it as an improvement, if it was well thought out and done well. Good luck,

Sumner
===========================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[Seahorse24]

Thank you all for your comments. I really appreciate your help and support. Both approaches I came up with appear to be risky. Safety is my number one priority. I don't want to make any unsafe modifications that might cause a possible sinking. I plan to have friends and family members with me on this boat. Therefore, based on your comments, I will not cut into the swing keel cavity, nor try to flip the boat at 90 degrees.

Since my internet search for a sailboat shop in the area that could do this type repair has not been successful, I have decided to take another approach. I will attempt to get my endoscope camera down through the hole where the rope comes up into the cabin. It won't fit with the rope, but if I cut the guide tube off at the base, that would give me more room for the camera tube to fit. I can then look at the condition of the rope with the camera. There is an adjustable light on the tip of the tube around the camera lens. We could fiberglass rosin that guide tube back into place. Since there is already a hole for the rope, There must not be any water pressure in the rope guide tube. Otherwise, water would be coming up through that tube into the cabin.

It is too cold to try this now, 10 degrees outside, and it is an hour's drive to the dock. Maybe next week. If that works, I'll post photos. I wish I had used my endoscope camera back when the boat was on the trailer and I could get under the boat. I had one of the support boards under the stub keel removed, but never thought about using an endoscope to look into that stub keel cavity.

Other than this one repair, everything else on this boat has been accessible. We can easily lower and raise the mast. The boat was easy to launch from the trailer, and the six horsepower outboard pushes the boat along well with only a little throttle. I have not tried sailing this boat yet, but my son sailed on this boat several times with the previous owner. If we can get this one last rope figured out, we'll have a solid setup for the coming season.

Thank you all so much. I'll post whatever the solution ends up being, along with photos. There are very few of these boats still in service, but I'm documenting everything on our blog just in case someone else decides to refurbish an old Seahorse 24 or other project boat. Hopefully, our solutions and approaches to bringing an old boat back to life can help others.

 

[Seahorse24]

I'm guessing the area you are talking about is the curved upper part of the truck. How close is the trunk to the seat and the sole? If it is tight I'd probably look for a different approach also.

If one is well versed in fiberglassing I'd have no qualms about them designing it for adequate strength. I would never worry about it popping off, but would suggest only undertaking the job if they were very confident. The area is so close to the waterline that water pressure there is minimum but as you mentioned can be greater if you are pounding into some waves.

Also as CD mentioned this could effect the resale, although I wonder how much with a boat that old and one might see it as an improvement, if it was well thought out and done well. Good luck,

Sumner

Thank you, Sumner. Good idea on using that blue line on that drawing to show the swing keel cavity is below the waterline. Yes, that is the area I talking about. There would be water pressure at the top of that cavity for sure.
===========================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...
MacGregor 26-S Mods...
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas

 

[srust58]

Seems the simple idea would be to take it to the local marina and have them hang it in the travel lift for an hour so you can change out the cable. Use 7x19 wire not 1x19 that is common for standing rigging.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Srust58
I second that one when safety is a major factor. I do not know the boat but many swing keels were hung onto the hulls years ago without access within the cabin. Held in place by two bolted in hangers which I think is the case here like the older style Catalina 25 and 22 are. I am not familiar with that boat but dealing with a heavy chunk of metal, one has to be very careful even for someone who is very knowledageble. Safer than be sorry as I say

 

[sailnewbie]

Maybe wont work for you but on my mac i put the boat on the trailer about 75% which allowed more room for the keel to drop and made the cable replacement abit easier.

 

[jwing]

Most US Mariner Association members use Dyneema or similar when replacing swing-keel pendants. I will too, when my time comes. Your plan involves outdated technology.

The small section of the pendant that is not visible from inside the boat can be inspected by wearing a snorkel mask and swimming under your boat while the keel is deployed. Chances are that you'll find no reason for concern.

I asked a boat repair guy about the pivot pin on a swing-keel. He told me that, in his experience, the only boats that needed a pin replacement were those that were moored or docked with the keel down. The constant rocking, combined with the lever action of the keel, is what causes problems.

 

[Seahorse24]

The pivot pin was replaced 11 years ago at the same time thenew rope was replaced.

The person who did the work eleven years ago is no longer in business. I am not a member of the yacht club which is located on the north end of the lake. l will try to find someone who is a member, who can tell me which shops have the equipment to lift the boat high enough to work under it.

 

[SamLust]

The boat and it"s rigging are designed around the fact that it WILL experience knockdowns, which are certainly more violent than a controlled careen. On the other hand I can see from your picture that there is at least one turnbuckle that is bent. That makes me nervous on a good day. Can we assume a thorough inspection would be made prior to careening? I would NOT cut off the cap of the centerboard trunk. Way too integral to the structure of the hull. Could it be fixed? Sure. Likely to be done right? Probably not.

I have in fact careened a smaller boat on my own in the driveway. I lifted it up about 5 feet to get the centerboard out. on the AMF Sunbird 16 the centerboard must be swung beyond straight down to lift it free of the hull, so it had to be that high in the air. When repairs were complete I looked at how the boat was hanging and got a bit nervous. I set an old inflatable underneath, lowered the boat onto it, set up the mast and hauled it over. Tied off to a convenient weight. In this case I think it was my double decker car hauler. Ain't goin nowhere. The repair of the centerboard took it's weight from 28 pounds to 80 pounds. 50 pounds of lead shot and a bunch of polyester resin will do that. Even at that, at my age it was fairly easy to horse it into place on my own. With a few guys at a sandy beach I would not be too concerned putting your Yankee over just to change out the the lifting rope. A few guys working together should have very little trouble pulling out the keel for that matter. I would second using synthetic versus metal wire rope. Stronger, non corroding, can't kink. Hanging the boat part way off the trailer has it's merits also. A lot involved there. Tie off to something big and non movable like a tree, set stands at the stern, haul the trailer away from the boat. A mistake puts the boat ON the driveway, where careening it in water simply puts it back upright in the water. I've done the partially off the trailer thing, but did not enjoy it. All of this is based on there being no lift available or too pricy for comfort.

That Yankee 24 appears to be a neat boat. Thanks for posting the brochure. Fun to look at.