Gennaker?

[Joetech]

I have had a '77 C-22 on Lake Erie for the last 4 years. The PO had, what I assume, was the original sails, a 135 jib and a footed main. It also came with this multicolored 'Gennaker' that wasn't made for the boat. I replaced the main in '09 and the 135 is pretty much blown out so I need to replace it.
When I sail on the big lake, winds and waves can build quickly. The 135 is OK for winds over 10 knots but not so hot for less, depending on the number on board. The 'Gennaker' measures out to be the equivalent of a 185. It is made of light clothe which I believe is ripstop nylon. A few years ago I went out in light winds and hoisted the Gennaker in light winds coming back, the winds picked up to about 10-12. Fortunately I had 4 other adults on board so I had enough rail meat and the waves didn't have time to build so it was a great ride. When I single hand, which is often, it is too much especially taking down.
So I've pretty much decided to go roller furl with a 150% jib on a CDI FF2. This Gennaker has a wire in the luff. I don't think it was made for the C-22. The PO tied knots in the wire to shorten it so when hoisting it will tighten. Not very elegant but is works. It also has hank on clips.
Now for my question, finally, should I keep the Gennaker for the days of light winds? I can leave the jib halyard in place. The CDI has an internal halyard so I don't need the one on the mast. The internal wire should act as the forestay, although not as tight and straight as the forestay, I would only use it in light winds and crew on board. The furler will allow me to single hand and reef the foresail from the cockpit when single handing. I would probably remove the hank on clips.

 

[Ed Schenck]

Is the 135 "not so hot" in light winds because it is too small? Or is it because the sail is blown out? My C-22 was on small Atwood Lake and I don't have small boat experience on Erie. But unless you will be racing I think a 150 is too much sail for big Lake Erie. True, you can wrap it up but a furled jib really sucks.

 

[CaptDon01]

We sail on the Pacific out of San Diego and the 150 works GREAT. It really gives the boat power and speed. Now I have reefed it a couple times, but for me, if the wind picks up, we'll usually either sail with the main or genoa. You would be surprized how well the C-22 sails under a single sail.

Don

 

[Joetech]

Yes a 150 would seem right. I have sailed with only the main or jib in a real blow. Doesn't point so well. Also reef the main sometimes. The problem with a 22 on Lake Erie is the chop. It only takes a few hours of sustained winds, particularly out of the north, for the waves to pick up and have a duration of only a few seconds. 3 to 4 footers are not uncommon and they are steep enough to break. The frequency of the waves is about 3 to 4 seconds.
This past summer my wife and I were out and we were surprised to learn the waves were at 4' but the duration was 7 to 8 seconds. The wind was at 10 to 12 knots and it was a great sail. We just rolled with the waves in any direction we chose. Usually, in such a small boat you have to be careful because the waves alone will heel you over 20 to 25 degrees for a few seconds if you hit them wrong. Lots of chop and pounding. That one day was, I suspect, a lot more like the ocean.
But my original question remains. Should I rig it in such a way as to have the option of rolling up the 150 and hoisting Gennaker in very light winds?

 

[CaptDon01]

If you have a CDI furler, then you still have a spare halyard for the gennaker. I've seen guys I sail with have the cruising spinnaker in a bag attached to the bow pulpit. They single hand their boats,(Montgomery-17 and O'Day-192), and use a down haul to pull them back into the bag. In fact, my friend with the M-17 uses hank-on jibs with a down-haul. Don't know why it wouldn't work on a C-22.

Don

 

[Solace of Freedom]

Erie sailor

I, too, sail on Lake Erie, but on the north end form the Detroit River.
Does anyone have a 2nd forestay rigged w/ a furlowing sail? Because, it seems to me that it would get in the way the FS. If you wrapped the 2nd one in the furlowing sail you would have to lower it to use it, defeating the purpose (but that is an option). I may be wrong, but it seems unlikely to have a 2nd stay rigged like this, because they are too close together. I thought you could have it connected to the top of the mast and run it straight down it and tie off the 2nd stay somehow until you wanted to use it.
The PO put a 175 gennie on a CDI furlower on my C22. It is either too heavy to open all the way in light air (I plan to rig a whisker pole this spring) or too big to open all the way in any wind. I think a 150 would be good though. Some say that a furlowed sail does not have the true shape that the sail should, but I don't think that affects the sails performance much. (If it is insufficient, just open it up more.) I'd rather have the extra sail available when you want it, to a point (175).

 

[Aldo]

Try it

BHS: Your question is something like one that I have had on my mind for a while, so thanks for asking it. Attached is a photo of my son sailing with his C-22 with his genoa and drifter. He furler is a Harken though, and has 2 grooves in it instead of just one. The day that this photo was taken he sailed right past us, when he pulled up the second jib. (I don't think that Harken still makes a furler like his).
I have a Schaefer roller furler on my C-22, so I don't have the 2 grooves. Like you, I have a big, hank on jib that I would like to use in addition to the Genoa. I plan on removing the hanks, and trying to use it with a spinnaker halyard that I will have to add, since my roller furler uses the jib halyard. (I wanted it this way, because I wanted to be able to take the tension off of the jib when I'm not sailing the boat). But, after one summer, I'm still tweaking my roller furling system, and the CDI ones that I've seen don't have the same type of issues). I'm pretty close now and I think that I will be fine once I shorten my foil a few inches. I think that the Schaefer may be better constructed.
I have a 150% Genoa on my boat, and it has foam in it to help it keep it's shape when partially furled. I don't think that I would have it made with the foam again though. When it is fully furled it's rather big in diameter, and I'm not crazy about that. I think that my wife likes it though, since she was the one that usually changed the sails.
I can't comment about what size sail would be good for Lake Erie, because you probably get more wind than on the Chesapeake Bay. I can say that I miss the performance that my boat had with it's 110%, because with the 150 furled to about 110, it just isn't the same. I was thinking about adding the tape to my 110% so that I could put it onto the furler, but I doubt that we would ever change from the 150 to the 110.
My son made his boat hook into a second whisker pole while sailing one day. I plan on getting a second whisker pole if this works out well for me.
I think that you should try your gennaker when you have some friends on your boat. It won't cost you anything.

Aldo

 

[paphman]

Aldo That is some set up your son has. We have a sail that we call a spin-drifter, made with 3/4 oz nylon. We also have a 150 drifter made of 1.5 oz nylon. Both sails came from Sail-Rite, and we built them. I said we, but my wife did the stiching, as she does this for a living and is great. The spinner as we call it, is 195 sf and has five hanks on the luff. We use it with a pole that we stow on the front of the mast. This sail has alot more draft than a drifter, and can be used to about 120 degr. to the windward. I did not want to deal with a spinnaker and all of the problems that come with it. We sail on the east end of lake Ontario, and this sail has been great for us. Last year was our first season with it, and there is a small learning curve but it has proven to be a most usefull sail for us. Sail-Rite has the plans for this, and were very helpfull in working with us on our idea for this sail. Just another idea.

Dale

 

[watercolors II]

Try this.

If you have the extra halyard try this; use your Jib with the Genoa.

When running down wind in light to moderate winds with main up and the genoa poled out run your hank on jib or “bhstech” your blown out 135 with hanks, up with the extra halyard. You say how do I hank on the sail luff, you don’t, as you play around with the halyard you’ll find a sweet spot in the luff opening up between the other head sail to the point where you’ll see bigger increase in speed when the slot between the 2 head sails is just right. “Aldo”, have your son try this sometime on his setup by not using the extra groove in his furler and open up a slot between the sails.

It seams like instead of all the air trapped in the middle between the two sails, the wind coming off the genoa is pushing the jib and the slot is allowing that trapped air to flow around the front of the genoa giving some lift on a straight down wind run.

With genoa and jib in this configuration you don’t have the sq. footage as a spinnaker or drifter but you do have much more than just the genoa.. I do this all the time single handling, because I don’t need the extra lines and extra hands for spinnaker pole adjustments, and it’s so much easier to take down. Just let the jib flip across the deck and lay up against the larger genoa, you can continue to sail on with it there, remove the pole on the genoa and sheet in the genoa closer to deck and then slide it down while against the genoa..

This past summer I was sailing with a friend on his 28 foot cutter rig on the Chesapeake Bay. We were sailing 4 knots down wind in 8 to 9 mph wind with just the 150 genoa on a furler poled out and I tried this with his cutter sail. This sail would be only about a 50 to 60 percent because it’s cutter stay is inside the forestay and it only goes to 3/4 rigging up the mast. I had to let the halyard way out to allow the top of this cutter sail to open up a slot in front of the genoa with the halyard only going up the mast 3/4 of the way.

He was watching his GPS and said the boat picked up 1/2 knot and the helm went neutral, because before this with just the genoa the hull was pulling towards the genoa side without the mainsail running wing on wing.

 

[Aldo]

Paphman and Watercolors: Thanks for your comments, Aldo

Watercolors: Is it worth trying to fly the drifter in front of the bow pulpit? If I do that, I will have to put my roller furler in the center hole of the stainless steel fitting at the bow. If I fly it behind the bow pulpit, I will attach it to the aft hole in the fitting.

Thanks again, Aldo

 

[watercolors II]

Aldo

Aldo, do not move the furler, attach your drifter to the bow like a hanked on sail, doesn't mater if it’s in front or in back of the furler. I’m looking at your attached photo where your genoa is poled way out to starboard which means the wind is coming over your right shoulder. Your drifter is shadowed by your main so the drifter is filling with wind from the genoa.

Try not running your drifter up the extra sail slot in your furler, just attach the halyard and hoist it up so the sail is only attached at the 3 corners. When both head sails are filled with wind the gap between the genoa and the drifter will only maybe 6 inches with the drifter halyard pulled tight. Slowly drop the halyard so the gap between the two sails is 18 to 36 inches at the center, see if it makes a difference in speed. I know when I fly my 100 percent jib with the 150 genoa the gap is about 24 to 30 inches for best performance.

 

[Captain 9330]

bhstech, thanks for asking the question!

Aldo and Watercolors, thanks for the great ideas!

I have flown both 100% Jib and 130% Genoa before having figured out how to hank on the sails together in an arrangement like Aldo's son. I have no roller furling on my C-22. But the time and effort consumed compared to the payoff seemed like a lot of work for little gain so it was a one-off experiment.

The "un-hanked" approach is sound from a physics perspective as a sail is an airfoil and air flow is the key to enhancing performance instead of air pocketing. What comes immediately to mind is the use of canards on aircraft to spoil the air approaching a delta wing to modify airflow and improve the plane's performance.

I single hand pretty much exclusively on the eastern end of Lake Erie. Our predominant wind direction has this technique as something best used when on the homeward leg of a voyage. Simplicity is the key in my experience and having the sail attached at only 3 corners has an attraction that constitutes a real gift this holiday season. Next trick is to convince this skeptical and conservative cruising sailor

Historical trivia (somewhat related to this string) holds that sailing warships noted improved speed after a battle with cannon ball holed sails.