Generators

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sep 25, 2008
544
Bristol 43.3 Perth Amboy
Caution with portable generators

A member of my club had a portable generator running. It somehow got knocked over, caused a fire and his boat burned to the waterline. I'm not sure of the brand.

They do seem to fill a niche for those without the room or $$ for a diesel generator.
 
Mar 1, 2010
12
Gulfstar Sloop St. Augustine
New technology...and "where to"?

Certainly a lot of great info on this discussion...no such thing as too much.

I have several questions:

How big/small of a sailboat justifies a small (5-20kw) diesel generator (Northern Lights, Lugger, etc) when planning on having Sat. TV, various electronics, microwave, and decent, long-term refrigeration?

With an aft davit (for mounting) and the advent of new-technology solar panels, wind generators, gel-batteries, and room-by-room mini A/C units, how "energy self-sufficient" can one really work towards these days?

My plan is sailing for months, if not years, through the Caribbean and eventually to the Med, so "self-sufficiency" is everything.

I'd also like to know anyone's opinion on just "where" someone (me) not familiar with all this would find the best help and direction? Are there all-in-one, honest places that keep current on what's out there...and how to best integrate & install it?
(Since I live in Colorado I'm not too familiar with just what's out there)

Feel free to contact me directly...I can use all the help I can get.

:D Scott (thesnowcrow@gmail.com)
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
It also depends where you cruise......

Like njsail said:
We have a Honda 2000i that came with the boat. We only really used it for running the A/C during a brutal summer.
So it seems it really depends on one's cruising area and season.

In our cruising area I'd almost guarantee you that virtually NO ONE has an air conditioner on their boat. Hence, no need for generator, that is, unless you're a stinkpotter.

In fact, the standard climate control option on board is for a diesel forced air furnace!!!
 
May 11, 2004
2
Hunter 450 Fleming Island
I grant you my husband is a bit of a handyman but he devised a system that augmented the generator that came installed on our Hunter 450 with solar panels and a wind generator. Both the solar panels and the wind generator had separate switches so that they could be turned off when needed. I didn’t like the noise from the wind generator at night and he didn’t like the idea of the solar panels charging if we did connect to a shore power. For the 18 months that we sailed through the Caribbean, we rarely pulled into a slip. That being said, we did run our generator once in the morning and once at night to keep the refrigerator cold and run the water maker; everything else (including our ice maker) ran from the other systems. Keep in mind our location. We had plenty of sunshine and trade winds for power and we didn’t use the air conditioner. Other than that, the only restrictions that were imposed by the “amp nazi” was having to turn off my TV or computer by midnight.
 

Fogg

.
Dec 8, 2010
47
Catalina 30 Tall rig New Haven
We have two 85 watt Kyocera panels mounted above our bimini which return our batteries to full charge while we are not aboard. We summer on a mooring and anchor out while cruising. Our house bank is an 8D Lifeline AGM battery with 255 amps. Once the reefer is cold the contents stay cold. I always precool the reefer with a block or two of ice before loading prefrozen stuff. I have aluminum bubble wrap around the inside of the reefer, as well as plex shelf dividers keeping the lower compartment even colder. I keep a supply of freezer ziplock baggies full of foam shipping peanuts and replace anything removed with a couple baggies, thereby reducing the cubic footage of the reefer. We have LED's for almost everything the lights, as well as suction cup dark sensitive solar lights in the salon, head and V berth, which makes the odd trip to the head or around the cabin energy free. Those lights have red/white light switches.
We have a Honda 2000 generator which we break out during a splurge of power usage or a run of fog. We love it and I've never had a neighbor comment negatively, even when asked. I'm still working on maximizing the external insulation of the reefer box and plan to use the non expanding foam to stick some foam board around the available surfaces.

I hate to seem anal about power consumption or reduction, but it is an interesting and rewarding challenge.

Good luck!
 
Nov 2, 2009
4
BENETEAU 393 SYDNEY
We love our Honda 2000i. Spend extended times off the dock. Use the generator ever 3 days for about 2 hours to fully recharge. I keep my ice box cold and all is good.... We bring the generator on deck and have added an additional foam pad so less vibration transfers to the boat. The unit is very quiet, however make sure you don't get exhaust in the boat. We close the windows on the side the generator is on.... small price to pay.
We too run a Honda 2000 as really feel it is the simple way to go compared to $2500 for solar panels then $4000 worth of stainless steel to hold them up in the air.
I have added about 20mm of stainless tube to the Honda exhaust (motor bike engineering shop) and after mounting the Honda on a rubber pad in one of the cockpit lockers led the exhaust overboard via some nitrile rubber pipe to a hull skin fitting adjacent to the main exhaust. Yes we must leave the locker lid open to assist cooling though that also assists in minimising the sound.
Although the setup works well I have considered running a small raw water pump and injecting the output into the exhaust just above the skin fitting as in an exhaust elbow.
So far we are more than happy with the result and have had no complaints from neighbours during our 1.5 hours running per day. LED lights RULE!.
 
Jan 22, 2008
11
Beneteau 440 Toronto ON
We cruise the Caribbean all winter long.
We started with just engine power to drive both fridge and charge batteries. An hour long engine run both morning and night!
We added a wind generator. After some study we chose the KISS wind generator (Thank God). We have spent many evenings in many bays where the noise from an Air X generator located 100 feet away was more irritating than that from the KISS just 8 feet away. When the nearby boat is upwind we can always tell when the next wind speed increase is about to come to us when we hear the air X winding up!!! Please get a KISS. The head is available from Trinidad for about $1000.
Since then we have virtually changed all our lighting to LED. A combination of 12v and Solar rechargable for different applications works very well. We, too, use the solar disc lights that mount on the inside of the portlights to provide freedom of movement below decks.
We changed out the engine driven fridge for a 12 v fridge. We have 2 4D batteries as House batteries and a separate engine start battery.
Last season we added a single 135 watt solar panel.

We can now sit at anchor in our favourite bays in the Grenadines for days in succession without needing to have an engine run! The only reason to start the engine is when we must go to a nearby Island for provisioning.

The engine also provides hot water through the heat exchanger, of course, but it is very easy to boil a kettle on the propane stove for the evening washing up. Showering is all done with water directly from the tanks on the swim platform at the stern (usually after a swim).

So, bottom line, evaluate your own needs. Adjust your habits and equipment for modern technology. You do NOT need a generator at all!

Good luck, Steve Brockhouse
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,615
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I find it helpful to summerize what I've learned from the many contributed experiences above:
1) Look for energy savings in LED's and better refrig insulation - maybe some cold bags, reduce volume in the freezer. Load the fridge with frozen stuff.
2) Kyocera 130 watt solar panels can top off battery better than an alternator or perhaps even a generator.
3) Hold off on the wind generator.
4) The Honda 2000i is the one to buy if I go that way.
5) Get a Victron BMV600 battery monitor

Last year about this time I was thinking of upgrading my alternator which I never did. It got complicated and we were thinking of selling the boat anyway. We're in it for another season so I may put the Balmar or other 70 or 75 amp alternator in. That would at least charge my batteries while we motor, which we do more than I would like to admit when cruising. My summer vacation is about 10 days so we do move alot.
I'll look into some solar panels but I believe they would have to be flexible.
Next would be LED lights especially the Anchor light (~10 ah a night!). Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and pay someone to go up the mast and replace the anchor light unit with a LED version - CG approved, of course - thank you MS.
I'm going to hold off on the Honda. At worst, if I want to stay on a mooring for multiple nights, I can arrange to keep it and go for a "Harbor Tour" to charge the system with my 70 amp alternator, running the engine at 2800 rpm and heating the hot water to boot.
By the way, I'm seriously thinking of spending a good deal of my summer cruise in Narragansett Bay. But that's another thread.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,462
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
You probably already know these cautions (with your plan) but:
people are fixed on solar panel ratings, not actual power produced on a typical day;
In Narragansett Bay, Block, etc, if you drop a mooring, don't plan on it being free when you return;
Research Balmar alternators very carefully for problems many have had with heat;
Be realistic with how much add'l charge you get with an upgraded charger - here too, ratings are misleading in terms of actual production rate at an avg rpm.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,055
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Andrew, you could save lotsa $$ buying a Leece Nevile or Blue Circle alternator. Same guts 1/3rd the cost.

Battery acceptance will limit input unless house bank is deeply discharged.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I posted the following over on the "Trailer Sailor Forum", but it might have some use here.



We added 180 watts (3 panels) where the arrow is in the picture above. It worked well for us on a month trip to Florida that just ended, but didn't supply all of the power.

One important thing is how new/good are your batteries and how long will you be out and where are you sailing. Pulling the batteries down to 50% is not going to be good on them and I think ours (one was new and the other had been used for an 18 day trip--both are the same) are not as good now as at the beginning of the trip.

We were powering a 63 quart EdgeStar frig (real compressor frig) 3.5 amps when running, a CPAP machine at night at 1 amp with out the humidifier running. A dedicated 12 volt computer running SeaClear that uses 1.8 amps normally and 2.3 when the hard disc is accessed and 2.8 when using the WiFi with the router and Bullet 2 HP radio. It ran also all the time underway and a lot every evening when we had WiFi coverage or I was writing. A handheld Garmin Map 76 running 24 hours a day with the anchor set at night and hooked to the computer/seaclear with waypoint from it. A Cuda 350 GPS depth finder when under way. A 2 watt anchor light and a few other items like a cell phone charger.

Driving down, 2200 miles - 4 days the panels supplied power for the frig. We were down there about 4 days using the other items listed and then I finally had to run the......



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-13.html

.... 60 amp gen-set for about 1/2 hour.



Then over the next 3 1/2 weeks I probably had to run the gen-set an additional 1 1/2 hours total and we also got some charging from the outboard running with it for about 10 hours total in that time. Some of that time though the batteries were topped off and we didn't need the outboard output.

We have no need on the boat for 110v, so that is the reason for the 12 volt gen-set. It uses hardly any gas at all. On this trip of about a month, never hooked to shore power, we used about 2 quarts of gas in the gen-set to supplement the solar panels. Since it is permanently mounted there is no need to haul a generator in and out of a compartment and the Honda engine is usually a one pull start and is pretty quiet. Can't hardly hear it 100 feet away and being on an anchor all the time we are usually further than that from someone. In fact this was the first trip that we ever actually anchored near anyone and that was for probably only about 6 nights. In those cases I wouldn't run it after 6 or before 9 or so in the morning and never had to run it for more than 10-15 minutes. The vibration noise inside the cabin though is not good on our small boat and I'm going to work on that. I have made an auxiliary muffler to supplement the stock one since the pictures here and that has really reduced the noise for others. They can't hear the vibration noise. The gen-set for us takes care of any solar inadequacies.

I have a volt meter and amp meter running all of the time that both read to .1 of a volt or amp. I usually decide when to run the gen-set by monitoring the voltage with no real load on. I determine when to stop charging by watching the amp meter and usually stop when it gets under 10 amps as I'm down to diminishing returns by then. The gen-set will put out 60 amps, but the most I ever saw was about 28 and usually about 22-24 when I would start charging.

In the winter the sun angles are very low, even in Florida and the days very short. When we go back down after the first of April I'll bet we probably won't have to run the gen-set at all. We had clouds, but not near as many as someone would have further north in the eastern part of the U.S. or maybe Canada, so take that into account. I think the figures the others have posted are pretty realistic.

Since we don't have any more real room for panels I went with the more expensive MPPT controller to try and maximize the efficiency of the ones we do have.

Good luck and put as much wattage as you can up there if you are a cruiser and want to stay out for long periods.

On our site .....



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/outside-33.html

....... I have the panel installation pictures,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,615
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
At least at Block Island if you tell the Harbormaster that you are staying on the mooring you will get to. Anchoring has no such protection.
Since Don is from Warwich, RI I would be interested in the mooring /anchoring ins and outs of that area. Another thread?
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Kyocera panel - new models are 135 Watt

2) Kyocera 130 watt solar panels can top off battery better than an alternator or perhaps even a generator.

...so I may put the Balmar or other 70 or 75 amp alternator in.
For info, the newer Kyocera panels are now 135 Watt, and there are different models:

Quote from a web site: "The Kyocera KD135SX is one of the few higher power solar panels still available with a junction box, rather than the MC4 cables. "

The type that I used have a junction box.

Also, the 70 Watt Balmar that I have is an earlier model. I believe the newer ones are rated at 75 watt but I'm not positive. As for the comment about them having problems,.. that I'm not aware of. I've been running Balmar for over 20 years and never had a problem it. It has been very dependable. I'm also using a Balmar regulator.

The regulator has a 45 second delay so when you start the engine be sure there is fast idle because when the alternator kicks in you'll know it and it'll lug the engine down. That's nice because you know it's putting out!
 

njsail

.
Feb 18, 2010
216
Bavaria Ocean 40 CC Forked River
Sumner - Those modifications you made to you boat are over the top in creativity - thanks for sharing the pics. Awesome job on the custom fabrication. I would consider raising our Honda 2000i on a rail platform but with our center cockpit our locker lids are in the far aft corners and it would impair opening the lids.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I find it helpful to summerize what I've learned from the many contributed experiences above:

2) Kyocera 130 watt solar panels can top off battery better than an alternator or perhaps even a generator.
To put this in perspective topping off batteries to 100% state of charge (SOC) can take many, many, many hours of charge time. The more full a battery gets the less current it will accept thus the last 15% can take a very long time to replenish no matter the charge source or how big.

This is why many cruisers cycle their banks between 50 & 80% SOC, not 50% & 100% SOC. A solar panel can run when you are not there and will top off the batteries to 100%, something an alternator or generator just won't do unless you want to run it for hours and hours on end. This is why the statement was made that a solar panel can "top off" batteries better. Of course of your boat is on a dock most of the week then a shore side charger also has the time to do this.

We are often off hiking or exploring some of the many islands along the Maine coast. On a sunny day we can leave our boat at 80% SOC and come back at the end of the day well over 90% SOC and sometimes darn close to 100% SOC because of the solar panel.

4) The Honda 2000i is the one to buy if I go that way.
If you think you really need a small portable gas generator then the Honda's are worth the money.

5) Get a Victron BMV600 battery monitor
A true battery monitor may show you that you really don't need to change much at all or that you really do. Ah spread sheets are only as good as what you put into them, and guess at, especially with variable load items. The old moniker "garbage in garbage out" seems to often fit with some of the calculations sheets I've seen and how they compared in real life to actual Ah consumption. Can you get close? Yes, you can get very close but it takes accuracy and careful monitoring of your cycle use and loads.

Many Ah spread sheets I've seen are often off by as much as 20-30% and a good one would be under 10%. Variances of 20-30% are not bad when it favors the batteries but are really bad if it is not in their favor. An amp hour counter/battery monitor is actually keeping track of the actual usage and what has actually been put back. Provided you keep them well calibrated I feel they are one of the best investments you can make especially for their under $160.00 price tag, or less than one decent quality battery.

I have not yet had one person say to me they wished they never installed one. Most everyone who has one says the same thing "How did I ever live without one?".

My neighbors were going through battery banks every season and a half, or sooner. Bill had done an Ah use spread sheet but his calculations, despite all his best efforts, were off by over 20% in the real world and not in favor of the batteries. Add to this the fact that he thought running his 100 amp alternator for an hour actually put back 100 Ah's and he was drastically and chronically using more than he thought and under charging on top of this.

Once the monitor was installed, the next bank which was the same exact brand and size, was still going at year five when they sold the boat. The only change they made to the system was a battery monitor and they added at least 3.5 years of service life to their battery bank. What he found was that he had been drawing his bank to 20% SOC from a full 100% charge. Then because he never got back much above 70% SOC from the alternator, when he thought he was back at 100%, he was literally taking them to dead the next day and often had to use his reserve bank to start the engine. Despite having a small solar panel (20 watts) he still killed banks like street gangs do drive by killings in LA.

When Bill added the monitor he was amazed at how little he understood about his use and charging system, this is not uncommon. He simply switched to a 50% to 85% use scenario and added a lot of life to his bank but did have to charge more often than once ever three days as he had been doing. Based on Bill's experience the battery monitor actually cost them nothing due to the extended life of the banks they were not replacing every 1.5 seasons. Again, nothing was added or changed except for adding a battery monitor and charging when it told them to.

BMV-600 Battery Monitor $158.10
 
Mar 3, 2003
710
Hunter 356 Grand Rivers
Get at diesel built-in generator!

Snowcrow:
I have a 2003 Hunter 356 with a 2000w inverter/charger, 2 4D lifeline house bank batteries and a 5KW Northern Lights generator. I use the link 1000 monitor to see what is happening when the generator is not running or it is charging. I have a full complement of electronics including below decks autopilot, chart plotter, sonar, two laptops, radar, and a fully tracking satellite TV antenna (KVH) with a 20" lcd tv with dvd player and Dish network. We have the stock refrigerator/freezer and microwave. We have a propane stove with two burners and oven.

At peak load on the batteries, we will run 35amps at night with all the lights on and everything plugged in and running except the ac. We never run them down more than 50% and they are still going strong after 6 seasons. They last 7 to 8 hours on the 200 amps available to 50%. We are not big battery/inverter users though as the generator is our major electrical power system used.

We generally turn the generator on before leaving the dock and don't turn it off until we return. It keeps the batteries charged through the inverter/charger. We use the HVAC all the time as it is a water source heat pump and either heats or cools depending on the setpoint below. We are always comfortable in spring, summer and fall. The Northern lights generator uses about 1/4 gallon per hour and costs about 75 cents an hour to operate at $3.00 diesel.

The Northern Lights operates with 3 cylinders at 1800 RPM so it is smooth and quiet in operation and we had a custom sound enclosure made that reduces the sound to a very low hum. It is mounted in our port locker and doesn't bother us at all in our rear bedroom which is right next to the locker. It doesn't bother us and our anchor neighbors cannot even hear it. The exhaust is below the water line.

I have friends who have all the above stuff but no generator and have loaded up on solar. On a hot, humid day or night on the hook on Kentucky Lake, they generally end up with a generator anyway to keep their wife happy.

We use our boat about 75 days per year, many of them on the hook or cruising on the lake all day and into the evening. We would never have used it that much without the generator as my wife is content to read or watch tv while underway in the comfort of home. In a typical season, I will use around 100 gallons of diesel and I don't skimp on comfort or worry about motoring somewhere if the wind is not there for good sailing!

Another item to consider is a full enclosure. We start our sailing in March and go through November. The side curtains come off in early May and go on in October. This extends or comfortable cockpit season two to two and a half months over our friends who don't have one. I have sailed in 30 knot winds, 40 degrees on a sunny day with a sweatshirt on in the cockpit. Nobody else is generally out. I made a 40 mile run one March day wing on wing and barely touched the sails in relative comfort. I was also getting some assist from the heat pump as I left the companionway doors open.

Some sailors don't think you should be as comfortable as we are on our boat. To us, that is just stupid. We get more use of our boat than most people on the lake and really enjoy our second home. If we wanted to camp out, we wouldn't have made an investment in a boat like we have. Look into all these things before you buy but think hard about how you want to use your boat and equip it to do what you want to do.
 

Attachments

Feb 26, 2004
23,055
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
The "issue" with Balmar alternators is not their quality, it is their cost. Same body, triple the cost. Why would you choose to do so? That's all. I have a Blue Circle, many have Leece Neville. I do have a Balmar Max Charge M612 regulator.
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
Honda

I would go with the Honda in your case reason being it would be the easy way and way cheapest to go for what you want to do I think.
The bad thing about adding solar or wind power is adding all these things all over your boat and sort of killing the sailing thing and if racing some times it will not do well racing.
I am sure if you are going out long distance for a long time than solar or wind power and battery upgrades would be great.
But for weekends or a week or two now and than I think the Honda 1000 or 2000 is just fine and not big a deal to charge batteries and even run other things on your boat to make things more comfortable while out at anchor with your wife and maybe even upgrade your battery bank for less times using the GEN(less short charging times) except when really needed.
Yes I have a Panda 4200 diesel Gen on my 2007 H-36 and love it.
I also have 2-4D's and inverter and use battery power when some place quiet and don't want to ruin the nice quiet anchorage for other boaters but when needed later on at the anchorage I use it,here in Florida in summer we do need AC for sure and that's when only a nice Gen will do the job.
Nick
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
My usual contribution to these threads is the advice I got from some other thread more than a year ago:
Unless someone has a better deal, contact WISE SALES.com, 800-916-9473, Honda 2000 was $884.90, delivered to my door in three days. I suggest getting the one with the 30-amp connector.
 
Nov 9, 2009
5
Macgregor 26X Florida
Mac 26XBoat

Some time ago, I bought a new gen...500bux....
Portable Briggs 3500 watt/electric start/6.5hp gen...100lbs..twice the weight
of my previous one, but fits on the cockpit seat alongside the steering console
of my Mac 26X-boat...(generally, no one sits there anyway)...runs VERY quiet.
I clamped a length of stainless flexpipe to the Super Silencer™ Muffler outlet
•Keeps noise levels down...pipe reaches over the side
at anchorage...you only hear blub-blub and the internal gears/parts...keeps the
neighbors friendly....
...has its own small battery/rope-start otherwise/never had to use it....just choke it
and turn the key...Weather Protected Panel.
•Keeps 3 outlets dry during severe weather.
2 outlets...either one puts out full power...12volt battery charging outlet too
While it sits on the trailer in my driveway, ..it makes a GREAT backup power source
for my house when the power fails...runs even the frig/AC/oil burner/wellpump...everything
...same stuff in the boat...charges BIG dual battery system....80qt freezer/frig/tv/AC/desalinator ....
and switching to the inverter is best for totally quiet operation.....
4-Gallon Fuel Tank...Generates up to 12 hours of power at half load
(I usually carry 40 gal for greater cruising range on the ICW...Try sailing all the way on it sometime...
:...especially asking a bridge operator fo an opening with the sails up -(

Oyeah...the top of the frame is just right for a chartboard w/chartbooks or folded charts...

Have a NICE day!

http://www.WritersWeb.org
 

Attachments

Status
Not open for further replies.