Gel coat cleaner

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jim Willis

Comparison of different methods for gelcoat

I have below tried to give an honest overview of the IG system versus tradional and poliglow type wipe on acrylics. You could probably also such procedures in combination if you wanted to - just experiment! I dealt with 303 on a separate post and will do my own experiments. I am also sending out for comparisons done by some detailers. Additional uses of some products are also mentioned. A: PROTECTION OF NEW(ISH) GELCOAT. Do not use compounding or harsh abrasives. Keep free of water spots, keep washed down (salt water conditions). Liquid waxes with a slight polishing action are less harmful but good paste wax (Collinite is better (thicker coating, more "filling"). IG's Mirror Hard Superglaze is the weatherproof, stainproof coating that can be wiped onto new clean gelcoat,even over existing wax. This coating will not crack yellow or peel and takes the surface weathering instead of the gelcoat surface. It can be used over painted surfaces and polished or cast metal too (good for spars cleats and line-stoppers on sailboats). Used over Slikenseal it can totally prevent gumminess on vents or fender tops. B: RESTORING OLD GELCOAT 1. PREPARING THE GELCOAT (the most important step) . The aim here is remove oxidation/stains, prevent their return and have a smooth surface (VERY smooth in the case of a using regular wax finish. a)Wet-sanding/compounding, then polish. Works on really old gelcoat that still has some thickness. However, this process cannot get rid of deep-down chalkiness (as on McGregor stripes, dark blue gelcoat etc). Needs skill with a buffer (you can ruin gelcoat on edges or on stripes that are usually of thin gelcoat). Needs good buffer, several hours and physical strenth. HAS TO BE DONE WHEN HAULED (unless you have a death wish or heavy duty cordless equipment). WEARS YOUR BOAT AWAY so it eventually needs painting or new gelcoat. There is no UV protection, mildew protection, anti-oxidants etc. Use of abrasives (except to remove ecessive roughness or faded pigment) is NOT recommended if you are going to use a "wipe on" acrylic clear coat since porosity is necessary for adhesive "key" and a sufficient layer of the coating will "fill" surface roughness. b) Butyl "cleaner/strippers" (poliprep etc) will remove wax (absolutely necessary for adhesion of acrylic coatings, stains and much deeper oxidation. It then has to be rinsed off. Will not remove surface roughness or faded pigment (still need abrasives). c) IG's Sea Glow Cleanser/Conditioner (use Neutral Clear on those few boats that have brown or beige gelcoat). This product removes and kills deep seated oxidation, slows return of oxidation, prevents mildew, protects against color fade and vastly brightens white & colors. Can be used in addition or in place of compounding with outer protection produced by various methods, including regular wax IG coatings. There is no need for abrasives on newish gelcoat, but very light scuffing necessary on older gelcoat so as to "open up" the pores so that cleanser can get down and remove chalk/stains and so that the conditioner can soak in and preserve the gelcoat. Compounding (even wet sanding?) can still be done with REALLY bad gelcoat that is rough to the touch (test by dragging you fingernail over the surface) , or if colored gelcoat has an outer layer that has faded pigment that has to removed. You do have to neutralize by WIPING with water-moistened (FO NOT HOSE!) towel and then wipe dry. Gelcoat will have a very clean, new satin feel. It is now ready for sealing with an outer protective coating (your choice but we think IG is more long lasting). Remember, Sea Glow remaining after the job, can ALSO be used to clean and restore viny lifelines, fenders, vents, inflatable boats, upholstery etc where it also stops color fade and maintains suppleness. 2. PROTECT THE GELCOAT (& other plastics) from weathering - getting a nice-looking shine.This is done after the preparation stage 1. above. a) Traditional wax finishes. WAX ITSELF IS NOT SHINY AND WILL DULL BEFORE WATER BEADING GOES - THE SHINE COMES FROM DIMETHYL SILICONES AND DURABILITY FROM "SET UP" SILICONES AND/OR RESINS. TEFLON INCREASES WATER BEADING BUT ADDS NOTHING ELSE (my experiments). Liquid waxes produce a very thin film and are therefore are only really only suitable for new shiny surfaces (including paint). Although they are easy to use and can be used without a buffer, they do not protect as well as good paste wax. Of all the paste waxes I have tried, Collinite paste wax is the best. However, it is terribly hard work to apply and "buff out" by hand and leaves a satin not high gloss sheen. Easier and higher gloss is seen with machine buffing that actually heats up and melts the wax & resins. We find that using an undercoat of IG Silkenseal , wiped on (to dryness) is important and that an outer coat of Silkenseal produces much better shine and weather protection. If conditions are very humid, wipe on thin, back and forth until dry. b). Wipe on- water based acrylics (Vertglas, poliglow, newglass etc). As alsready stated, wet sanding/compounding should be avoided, since penetration of the coating into the gelcoat pores provides the adhesion of the coating. That is why these products are forbidden on NEW (or newish) boats, painted boats etc., since cracking or peeling will result. Also any old underlying wax has to be removed to remove "fisheyes" etc. However, the butyl-based precleaner "Poliprep etc" should remove wax and most deep- seated oxidation. You keep putting on multiple coats of the 6-12 coats) , until a smooth high gloss is produced. Properly applied, the finish is close to sprayed on urethane. An attractive feature of these coatings is that they dry quickly, but this also means that you should not apply in very hot sunny conditioners (dull surface, streaks). A special applicator is necessary to minimize overlap marks in the finish. Shine can be touched up every season for about 3-4 years when (if gone grey or yellowed) it has be "stripped" and redone. On dark colored gelcoat that has gone grey, or on white gelcoat that has gone yellowed (due to coating breakdown) the stripper may not work well and old resins may have to be wet sanded off. However, under less severe conditions, these coatings will greatly outlast conentional waxes. c) Professionalyy applied 2-part solvent-based clear coat. The microshine method is probably based on this method. Many yards do a "quick fix" on old gelcoat (rather than a complete repaint) but spraying on a two-part solvent based polyurethane clear coat. Obviously, initial results are dramatic and labor charges are minimal. However (as for the water-based acrylics) all clear coats eventually become grey and opaque ( you can see this on the hood of cars that are more than 5-6 years old in hot climates). Because the underlying gelcoat was porous, peeling is unlikely, but this outer clear coat HAS to be removed by wet sanding, since strong paint remover (the only other way) would also remove the gelcoat!. We had a customer this summer (Randy Kahn of CA ) with a black gelcoat stripe that had been treated this way (although the yard would not confirm). Wet sanding and (eventually IG system) fixed the problem. d) IG's Silkenseal and Simply Brilliant Superwax. Silkenseal is a "plastic skin" sealant that is "rubbery" in consistency and was originally designed as a stain-resistant coating for vinyl, leather and rubber (upholstery, inflatable boats, etc). On older porous gelcoat it seals over the pores so that regular wax or our SB Superwax do not soak in (producing a dull surface) or comingle with conditioner from the Sea glow (that will interfere with proper curing of the SB Superwax, leaving an oily layer that can be partially washed off and/or dulled by rainwater runoff. SB Superwax is a synthetic resin-coating that also contains synthetic (non-yellowing) wax particles for "filling" of surface pitting and greater weathering resistance. This is a wipe-on coating that can be used with associated catalyst (SB Catalyst) for faster setting in cool conditions or on porous gelcoat where otherwise many SB Superwax coats have to be applied to counteract any the dulling of the finish due to "soaking in" of the resins. Just apply with paper towel or with slow speed buffer (scum buster). The surface lasts so long that customers re-order at 2-3 year intervals!! Initial finish is close to that of polyurethane but will age into a classic "waxed look" after some weeks. Although protection and water-beading will last at least 2 years under tropical conditionsl the surface should be kept clean and (especially on dark surfaces) periodic (6 month) touch up of the shine is necessary (use Silkenseal, more SB Superwax or Mirror Hard Superglaze). The protection therefore outlasts conventional waxes by 4-5 fold. C: ROUTINE CARE OF SURFACE. a) General. It is important to keep all surfaces rinsed down with fresh water at least once a week. A little dietergent or IG Pink in water really helps, especially with bird or spider feces. Microfiber cloth removes most suface dirt without need for strong cleaners - often just water will do! a) Black streaks and other surface pollutants. Only MH Superglaze surface is resistant to most stains. Metallic stains have to be buffed off. Silkenseal can reduce metalic (aluminum and rust) stains. ALL WAXES GET BLACK STREAKS because wax is really a "hard fat" and will absorb sooty hydrocarbons from airborne auto and aircraft exhaust. On regular wax, remove with "black streak remover" (actually a wax remover) Some removers contain wax and sllicones to repair the shine that is otherwise removed. Liquid waxes also remove black streaks and restore shine. MH Superglaze does this too but leaves a stain-resistant coating (when fully set). Black streaks in our SB Superwax used to be deep-seated and pronounced due to the thickness of the coating and excessive wax content. Latest versions have much less wax and so this problem has been minimized. It is virtually eliminated by use of an outer coating of MH Superglaze that is stainproof. c) Transom Soot. Remove with undiluted or 50:50 IG Pink. Fresh coating of SB Superwax or MH Superglaze tends to attract soot. Can remove and coat with Silkenseal or just use Silkenseal (multiple coats) in susceptible area if boat is to be used right away.
 
J

Jim Willis

Behold the power of (anon.) blanket negativity!

Jeff D: It seems that in politics, business and every walk of life nowadays everything is getting very nasty. One negative remark can outway thousands of people who are quietly satisfied or enthusiastic enough to post positive comments - I am sure that you know that! IG is a synergistic system of 9 different products that can be used individually for some purposes or together for other purposes. If I did not think that this is the best system around, I would not even bother to put my money, effort and 30 year scientific reputation into it. Also I would not have been able (after testing by them) to get sales distribution in Australia and New Zealand (info on request). My early sciientific work was cited in two Nobel addresses. Everytime you take aspirin to help prevent a heart attack or other use you are substantiating stuff that I did when I was in my twenties and thirties. I also edited 3 books on medicinal chemistry and pharmacology. Although this thread was about gelcoat restoration, you brought in IG's non-skid sealant that was developed by me with feedback help from a "focus" group drawn from this very website. The non-skid sealant properly applied SHEDS WATER AND DIRT, indeed one repeat customer (ordering this year) who has his boat on a mooring, states that the when it rains the boat cleans its own decks. Clearly the coating you applied did not cure properly for some reason - yet you have trashed my entire line of products - are you attempting to ruin me? I can be reached anytime. There is a tech line, a fax line and and two toll free lines. We have many THOUSANDS of satisfied customers including about a thousand non-skid sealant users. Are the testimonials in the chandlery (this site) and on www.islandgirlproducts.com all made up by shills? Is the attached movie faked? Why didn't you ask for your money back ?- heck if you needed the coating remøved (about half an hour with xylene) I would have even have paid the labor charges and replaced the product in case there was a QC problem (I have had about 4 complaints similar to yours concerning a batch that may not have been bottled properly at our contract factory in CA. It is more likely that it was applied too thick). BTW I also think that Aurora make good stuff - probably why West Marine dumped them when they dumped us, armada and many small company's products. However, try pouring old engine oil or cetol onto unsealed decks or decks sealed with Aurora sure ste?. any other non-skid sealant (see attached movie - No, we did;t fake it!). If you just want water beading use Woody Wax on the deck. You trashed our whole line of products - BUT did you try the product system on vinyl, hypalon, paint, metal, clear plastics cleaning up 5200, cowl vents lifelines, gelcoat etc etc.? You can call me at 1-877 434 2089. or 1-800-441-4425 or e-mail at islandgirlproducts@mac.com. It would help if you provided your actual name and contact data so that I can see if you did actually get the products from us.
 
Feb 12, 2005
143
- - Lake Worth, FL
Again Jim, if it works for my good old boat,

im more than willing to write a good review for you if your product works. I understand that not all products are good for all cases, but even 3M and Aerospace are sending me samples to test.
 
P

Peter

a bona fide customer

Yes, I am a bona fide customer and I will contact you directly and you can ask me any questions you like about the products and the results. Peter
 
J

Jim Willis

IG versus 303 - the movie !

The attached link (quicktime) shows the effects on the really chalky and porous gelcoat I use for the most severe QC tests. Also have tests done on boat but no video yet. More later on paintwork, vinyl etc. BTW IG does not have to be applied every 3-5 weeks. BTW...Peter (bone fide)- Call me Tues!! Do not want to use e-mail.
 

jimq26

.
Jun 5, 2004
860
- - -
IG vs 303? Very misleading piece of work.

You referred to the 303 "product" as a sun tan lotion for fabric or canvas. One of their products is just that, but that's not the one you use on gelcoat. For a test like you were trying to conduct, you should have used 303 Aerospace Protectant. You should have read the complete directions for application as well - you simply sprayed it on then quickly wiped it dry. Their instructions are very exact, and the product works if applied correctly. In your movie you say that the water doesn't bead on the 303. Water is still beading on my deck and topsides here in the middle of October, and I did the 303 application (according to manufacturer's directions) back in the middle of April.
 
I

I used he stuff they sold...

Jim Willis

that said it was for use of fiberglass. Possibly it soaked in very deep. Did your boat also have wax etc on it? Was the boat fairly old or as bad as that car hood I used? BTW I got somewhat similar results on van paintwork. I saw the 303 site and they had three products, Protectant ( the original that I used to use years ago) - gelcoat is specifically mentioned on the bottle. I looked at the bottle this morning, It says that on fiberglass "SPRAY ON AND WIPE OFF EXCESS (I DID THIS!). It says to remove excess so that there is no streaking. A cleaner something that apparently increases the sound quality of CDs I am going to write out a protocol that I can post here for proper comparison. With 3M etc are we talking about "one step" (mix of compound and wax, cleaner waxes, paste wax?). Is wax going to be used alone or after polishing? Are cleaners going to be compared in side by side ways? Perhaps we should get a panel of 20 people who are "real"(real names etc) doing tests that are documented closely by video. I can edit down with everyone's agreement. Really need DV though....
 

jimq26

.
Jun 5, 2004
860
- - -
Again I say - read the complete instructions.

Boat is a 1973, and had no wax. Wax will not last a full year in the environment we have our boats in. Topsides were not as chalky, but the sides of the doghouse were, as was the cabin exterior bulkhead. Properly applied for this application (not sprayed on and wiped off) the 303 produced fantastic results. Had the video you made shown the proper application of the 303 (soak for a couple of hours or overnight) you would have proper results. Please - take the time to go to the 303 "Information by Application" - "Marine" - then look up "Restoring Gelcoat Fibreglass". Those instructions work. Did you have a look at the huge number of boat manufacturers who now endorse 303 Protectant for their vessels?? Wow - pretty impressive! Including Aloha. I have never criticized IG since I have never tried it. Always waxed (before launch, and after haulout). This was a very tedious job. The time to completely do the 26 footer (topsides) is 1.5 hours using the 303. I found that it did the job better than advertised, and in a very short time.
 
J

Jim Willis

I used the instructions on the bottle....

... but there is a lot more detail on the website - thanks. The stuff I used IS the same product that you used! I got similar poor results on paintwork, but they claim it needs first deooxidizing with a buffer. They do recommend compounding or use of abrasives on very chalky gelcoat. They also recommend water to rinse off dried excess on surface. This is curious and I will look into this. I will redo do "every which way" early next week and update or redo the video. I don't like being called dishonest! Remember 303, like us has been around for about 10 years but they have lots of money and reps. They have been claiming this gelcoat stuff for about the same amount of time and it is only now that I have noticed the interest in this use. Their use of original company endorsements was very clever and allowed them to (almost) not spend much on advertising for many years. Don't know whether this is the original company (I used to speak to their scientist) but they do now have some misleading stuff on their site. They are indirectly dissing McGuires,3M, West Marine and other makes of "vinyl cleaners" and protectants, also armorall(curiously our stuff would not fit into this). Also they deliberately confuse "silicone oils" with the "silicones" (like "carbons") which are large members of a huge group of chemicals that are in some glues, ALL waxes and probably in 303 also. They do not state in the MSDs what is in their product. Thanks for a good dialogue!! JW
 

jimq26

.
Jun 5, 2004
860
- - -
No Jim - one thing you are not!

You could never be called dishonest. After I watched your video,I realized that you hadn't read the complete application instructions for "gelcoat restoration" (for want of a better description). I'm not that knowledgeable on the chemical make-up of your product or the 303 product, and it would be silly for me to enter into any discussion other than to say that one worked well for me. As you said, good dialogue. It will be interesting to see what happens with the latest testimonials and reports on the 303 web site about their Protectant being used on teak. That may be pushing it a bit??? All the best,
 
L

Larry

IG nonskid

have used island girl on my non skid for the past couple of seasons. fantastic product. i apply it once in the beginning of the season and only wash the decks a few times a season.
 
J

Jim Willis

More tests on 303®

Hi JimQ26 Tried to get this done for the weekend. We also did on paintwork on van, after making sure to remove all underlying wax with IG pink. No water beading to start (303) but some next day. Slight though and not marked as with SB S.wax of MH S. Glaze. Can be get ten people with cameras? Sorry for previous huffy comment but was up late!
 
N

nosocks

Take a breath

Mr. Willis, Take a breath, then get a spell checker and start proofreading your email. Does your experience with aspirin in your twenty's really relate to the products you sell? If you made that claim in a “scientific” journal, you’d be torn to shreds. Maybe the problems so many are having with your products lie in the poorly written instructions. You clearly belief in your products and you are willing to spend a great deal of time testing them. Why not spend a few bucks on a professional writer so the rest of us can understand what you so clearly know.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.