full battens to revive blown mainsail?
- Thread starter MattObjects
- Start date
Just wondering....if you ease the luff boltrope like Jackdaw said and convert it to a loose foot, wouldn't he be able to flatten a blown out sail a little more? The clew would probably need to move in a bit since he would most likely run out of boom on the outhaul.
Kito; The outhaul for the loose footed mainsail does have the ability to be pulled a bit farther aft than a bolt rope setup and therefore the bottom 2/3 would flatten but he'd need to employ another sail trim control (boom vang) to flatten the top 1/3 but no matter how hard a mate tries, it's a difficult situation messing a sail that's at the end of it's life -- it's like trying to control a skid while driving on ice with bald tires. It just isn't going to happen.
The other problem a sailor has to be aware of dealing with a loose footed mainsail is at the other end of the spectrum -- when a mates release the outhaul to induce draft, they tend to induce too much draft. How much is too much draft?? Over 25% starts to become counterproductive.
The other problem a sailor has to be aware of dealing with a loose footed mainsail is at the other end of the spectrum -- when a mates release the outhaul to induce draft, they tend to induce too much draft. How much is too much draft?? Over 25% starts to become counterproductive.
My comment was poorly worded.... thanks for taking the time to actually read it... and 'splain what I really meant.
However... I have no evidence that supports my comment. It just makes sense to me...
So, in answering his question "does anyone have an opinion on whether a loose footed main would be the best choice on a boat with mid-boom sheeting?"
I would actually say... it doesn't make any difference what kind of sheeting your boat has.... loose foot and shelf foot are superior to attached foot.
This is great advice.
We took the old main into a local sail loft this morning. The gentleman there pulled the sail out of the bag and said it still looked to be quite serviceable for cruising, if not performance racing. (At 35' and 17,000 lbs, our Rafiki is never going to be a performance racer, no matter what sails we bend). He said the mainsail appears to have spent the majority of its life under a sail cover or stored in a sail bag so it is newer than its age would suggest.
When asked about our difficulty trimming the sail, he said that at the time the sail was designed (in 1979), the trend was to lengthen the leech even if this meant the boom hung down from the mast when the sail was raised because that was viewed as a way to expand the area of the sail without increasing the length of the spars. He said that trend was abandoned in the early 80s because sails shaped that way worked well for downwind sailing but could not be effeciently trimmed to sail upwind.
He recommended taking a wedge out of the sail near the foot to shorten the leech and give the sail a more modern shape. He will do that for us for less than 5% of the cost of a new sail and can have it done in four days. He recommended we try sailing with that for the rest of the season, then decide in the fall if we want a new sail.
We'll be in a regatta starting Friday so I'll report back on how the adjusted sail performs. I hope the loft owner is right and this will provide a semi-permanent fix, but even if it doesn't, I'm only out $125 for the adjustment so this is definitely worth trying.
While it does not address your original 'blown out' issue, that's worth a try. I hope that this adds some life to the sail and your sailing enjoyment. Yes the 'droopy boom' thing went out with bell bottom jeans.
But one thing. I don't understand the comment about:
'The gentleman there pulled the sail out of the bag and said it still looked to be quite serviceable for cruising, if not performance racing.'
To me, good sail shape/trim is good no matter what kind of sailing you do. And bad is bad. If the sail is blown out it is going to perform poorly, no matter what kind of sailing you do.
Amen. How you use the boat, racing or day sailing or cruising, is not the issue. After all, if you had your car mechanic look at your engine and he said that it's poor performance and stumbling, running on three out of four cylinders was fine for "cruising" you would get that engine fixed -- and find a new mechanic.
Your sails are the Main Engine for your boat.
Same sort of analogy.
Droopy boom was a short-term attempt to alter the measured sail area of the main sail for racing under some "rules". Very Little gain at the time, and a plethora of whacked skulls -- 80's -- if I recall.
Past time for a new sail.
LB
I think the issue is that sails don't go from new/crisp to utter bags with no middle ground in between. A mainsail that has lost a bit of its initial shape may not be good enough for a performance race boat whose captain is trying to eek out the last tenth of a knot but may be perfectly suitable for a weekend sailor who just wants to get to his favorite anchorage by sunset. Many sailors would gladly accept a 5-10% reduction in the performance of a mainsail in exchange for a 50% or more savings in sail cost. That is the basis of the market for used sails.
As for our mainsail, I think the guy at the loft was saying the reason we weren't able to trim it to my satisfaction had more to do with the designed shape of the sail than with the age of the sail (as had been my assumption). I've never seen a mainsail before this one with an obtuse angle between the leading edge and the foot and wasn't accounting for that in where I set the topping lift. He thought I would have been able to trim it better if I'd considerably lowered the topping lift. I said I value the skulls of my crew, and we agreed that modernizing the shape of the sail would be a better alternative to investing in helmets and increased life insurance. Even if it turns out (as I still suspect, despite what the loft guy said) that the body of the sail itself is blown such that its performance will be below what I'm willing to live with, trying out this altered mainsail will give me more information on the dimensions I will want for that new sail. I definitely don't want a new sail cut to the boom-dragging dimensions of the original sail.
Great for you to take this approach. $125 seems like a bargain price for a major improvement.
I didn't know about the low hanging boom design in the late 70's. That might explain why the Hood main sail that came along with my 1980 Cherubini Hunter purchase in 2007 had this "feature". I do believe that my sail was OEM.
I would just like to opine that SAFETY might be reason enough to do the "raise-the-clew" mod that you and your sail loft you have opted for.
The main sail that came with my 1980 Hunter 36 when I bought it in 2007, had a leach length that positioned the boom level right at head height for anyone over about 6' standing in the cockpit. For a dingy or a racing "one design", a low boom is OK. But on a cruising boat, often with friends and family aboard, a low hanging boom is a serious safety concern.
The sail was still structurally sound (albeit quite suspect about shape). But I was very uncomfortable using it. When I did hoist it (not anymore actually). I would don a bicycle helmet (hey it's ~25kts standard San Francisco Bay). Wearing it, a mistake might result in a "that was a stupid move" moment. Rather than being knocked out cold or worse.
I recently cut down an old but still in very good condition mainsail to fit my boat. Orienting the clew so that the boom would be above head height was factored in.
Adjustments on an old mainsail
So we got the re-cut mainsail back from the sail loft. After taking a wedge off of the bottom of the sail, the loft owner was still of the opinion that this sail has "a good few years of life left."
When I ran the sail back up the mast, I was happy with how the adjusted sail carried the boom safely above my head. But no matter how I tried to adjust the sail, the sail retained a row of creases from midway up the leading edge out toward the clew. I am sure I am missing some really obvious way of taking those creases out of the sail, so I am turning to you experienced sail trimmers for guidance. What am I doing wrong? I've attached a picture so you can see what I am describing.
So we got the re-cut mainsail back from the sail loft. After taking a wedge off of the bottom of the sail, the loft owner was still of the opinion that this sail has "a good few years of life left."
When I ran the sail back up the mast, I was happy with how the adjusted sail carried the boom safely above my head. But no matter how I tried to adjust the sail, the sail retained a row of creases from midway up the leading edge out toward the clew. I am sure I am missing some really obvious way of taking those creases out of the sail, so I am turning to you experienced sail trimmers for guidance. What am I doing wrong? I've attached a picture so you can see what I am describing.
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Ease the vang and the mainsheet, and then give it more halyard. That should solve it. It looks like it went up with one or both of those two control on. That will limit hoist then the leech pulls tight (like it is in that picture).
It IS possible that the cut was off and now the sail will not pull correctly.
But still a crazy amount of depth in it. Will be a bear in breeze.
It IS possible that the cut was off and now the sail will not pull correctly.
But still a crazy amount of depth in it. Will be a bear in breeze.
Thanks. This boat doesn't have a seperate vang, though the mainsheet goes from mid-boom to the traveler, then back to the boom just aft of the mast, then down to a block on the coach house roof, then aft through fairleads to the mainsheet winch next to the companionway.
I will try easing the mainsheet and tightening the halyard- hopefully that will solve it.
Good deal. Note to the class, ease EVERYTHING (sheet, vang, outhaul, cunningham) when hoisting the main. Hoist with a winch until vertical wrinkles JUST start to form along the luff. Then back off a bit. Mark this spot. Then bring back on the secondary controls.
Most people do not use enough luff tension on their main.
Here's how I "marked the spot". Once I positioned the halyard where I wanted it I marked the location with a piece of black tape. The tape matched the top of the cleat.
He may be right if you want to sail with rags. But these photos show a modern and what has worked out to be a smokin' fast suit of sails. I'm not saying all sailors need sails as good as these but I am suggesting that forum members could study the shape of these sails and learn what you want the shape of your sails to be.
As has been posted here before, good sails make sailing fun. Crappy sails are an exercise in frustration.
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I'm thinking ...
We purchased new sails from the local North loft during the first off season after we bought our boat in the summer. Nothing felt better than raising new sails the following spring.
the loft owner did all he could do with an old sail and offered that opinion to help you feel that the expense is worthwhile (hopefully it was a modest amount). It sounded like your original plan was to get thru the season by making quick improvements to this sail and purchase a new main sail in the off season. I'd stick with this logical plan and not worry anymore about the shape of this sail.
We purchased new sails from the local North loft during the first off season after we bought our boat in the summer. Nothing felt better than raising new sails the following spring.
Thanks! The sail is not perfect now but is a great deal better. Coming to this boat from a significantly smaller boat, I am still getting used to the concept of needing to crank winch handles to tension lines. I thought the main halyard was as tight as possible but had only hauled it up by hand. Using a mast winch with a handle to adjust the halyard made a great deal of difference. Duh!
Religion is coming soon
After much reading on this forum and others we too have placed the order for new sails as well. I too was worried about the cost with my Captain but once she heard the words "less heal angle in the same wind" she was sold. She is still a bit apprehensive about heeling much beyond 15 degrees.
So we treated ourselves to Xmas in July and ordered new sails. We are added a furler this winter and decided to get a later delivery date on the sails and finish out the last month or so of this season with the old sails. Can't wait to hear the angles sing next spring when we hoist the new sails for the first time!!!
Our boat is sailing with original sails and after 33 years they are shot. 33 years for any "engine" is a long service life and they have served her well. The time has come to give them a break and replace them. Even though we don't race and just sail for pleasure, if half of what I read is correct it will be the best money we had spent on the boat, minus that epoxy to repair the keel trunk leak.
Anyone who is sailing original 30 plus year old sails like us should really consider the same. We too have the 80's droopy boom syndrome that we are going to fix with a lower angle on the foot of the main sail. Less heel angle and reduced chance of a boom colliding with my head and roller furler with a 135% genoa to boot, all for not much more than the cost of the slip for the season, sounds like a deal to me!!
If you shop around the prices are not near as bad as I had feared. I won't say who we went with and I have no dealings with them but I hear good and bad about all sail lofts. So I will hold comment till after we receive our sails. I am hopeful that after all the measurements they asked for they get us something close to what we need an when the arrive when they say they will.
Sam in IN
After much reading on this forum and others we too have placed the order for new sails as well. I too was worried about the cost with my Captain but once she heard the words "less heal angle in the same wind" she was sold. She is still a bit apprehensive about heeling much beyond 15 degrees.
So we treated ourselves to Xmas in July and ordered new sails. We are added a furler this winter and decided to get a later delivery date on the sails and finish out the last month or so of this season with the old sails. Can't wait to hear the angles sing next spring when we hoist the new sails for the first time!!!
Our boat is sailing with original sails and after 33 years they are shot. 33 years for any "engine" is a long service life and they have served her well. The time has come to give them a break and replace them. Even though we don't race and just sail for pleasure, if half of what I read is correct it will be the best money we had spent on the boat, minus that epoxy to repair the keel trunk leak.
Anyone who is sailing original 30 plus year old sails like us should really consider the same. We too have the 80's droopy boom syndrome that we are going to fix with a lower angle on the foot of the main sail. Less heel angle and reduced chance of a boom colliding with my head and roller furler with a 135% genoa to boot, all for not much more than the cost of the slip for the season, sounds like a deal to me!!
If you shop around the prices are not near as bad as I had feared. I won't say who we went with and I have no dealings with them but I hear good and bad about all sail lofts. So I will hold comment till after we receive our sails. I am hopeful that after all the measurements they asked for they get us something close to what we need an when the arrive when they say they will.
Sam in IN