Fresh water holding tank

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ronbo

.
Jan 2, 2009
46
gozzard 44B mkll md
Peggy,
My holding tank has never been used for it's designed purpose. Instead I use it as a source for fresh water to pump the head.
Can you suggest an additive for the tank to keep the bowl fresh, something that won't be detrimental to the LectraSan? I don't believe there is any leakage from the LectraSan into the holding tank.
Thanks,
Ronbo
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
Squirting a little CP under the bowl rim is too much effort?

The LectraSan needs salt water to work. Insufficient salt will damage/destroy the electrodes...so WHY are you using fresh water to flush a toilet into a Lectra/San? Have you ever read the owners manual??? Raritan Lectra_San MC manual

Electrode packs are EXPENSIVE! So get rid of the tank...reroute your toilet intake to tee it into the head sink drain, which provides source of fresh water to rinse out the system before the boat sits, which will eliminate sea water odor problems while still providing the salt that the LS needs.

And keep your toilet bowl clean with a weekly squirt of Raritan CP under the rim.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,680
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
And I assume you do not visit any of the Chesapeake's NDZs. Yuck.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
Why do you say "Yuck?"

And I assume you do not visit any of the Chesapeake's NDZs. Yuck.
Btw, there's only ONE NDZ on the whole Chesapeake Bay: Herring Bay. The discharge of treated waste from a CG Certified Type I or II MSD is legal everywhere else on the Bay...and it's actually cleaner than the discharge from any sewage treatment plant, which is where holding tank contents go. Even the Save the Bay people opposed the state-wide "no discharge" bill that was introduced in the MD state legislature last year...fortunately it never made it out of the committee.
 

ronbo

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Jan 2, 2009
46
gozzard 44B mkll md
Peggy,
I'm thoroughly familiar with the manual.
I use freshwater because the holding tank holds plenty and even brackish water turns foul. I have a saline tank plumbed into the toilet. Occasionally I add table salt to keep the electrodes happy. This system has worked well for several years. I'll upgrade to a Hold and Treat System
if NDZs don't start proliferating in the Chesapeake Bay like they're doing in LI Sound.
Ronbo
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
Welll THAT's a relief anyway...

You had me worried! Now I'm only confused... The LS is designed to flush directly overboard....so unless you're in Herring Bay or spend a LOT of time at the dock in one of the very few misguided marinas who think they're "doing the right thing" by becoming "no discharge" (marinas a private property and can make their own rules as long as they don't violate any federal law), why are you flushing the LS into the holding tank enough to even be considering adding the Hold 'n' Treat?

But it still would be so much easier, and eliminate your foul water problems in the tank AND the toilet if you'd eliminate the tank and tee into the sink drain...'cuz you only need to rinse the raw water the system out before the boat sits to eliminate the intake odor problem in the toilet. Your flush water tank not only hasn't really done that, it has odor issues of its own.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,680
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Btw, there's only ONE NDZ on the whole Chesapeake Bay: Herring Bay. The discharge of treated waste from a CG Certified Type I or II MSD is legal everywhere else on the Bay...and it's actually cleaner than the discharge from any sewage treatment plant, which is where holding tank contents go. Even the Save the Bay people opposed the state-wide "no discharge" bill that was introduced in the MD state legislature last year...fortunately it never made it out of the committee.
a. Deale is in Herring Bay, so I'm sensitive.
b. Would you mind sharing data on typical discharge waste?

I agree the contribution is miniscule, below measurement in the grand scheme.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
I'm not sure what data you want...

Sewage treatment plants? Onboard treatment devices? Holding tanks?

There's plenty of data available, and I'll be glad to point you to it when I know where to point you. This is as good a place as any to start:
http://www.raritaneng.com/information/news/LST_Process.htm

Fwiw, EPA water quality standards for safe swimming require a max bacteria/virii count of 200/100 ml. The LectraSan/ElectroScan and PuraSan actually reduce it to <10/100 ml...cleaner than the water in ANY marina and cleaner than the discharge from any sewage treatment plant--which is where holding tank contents end up (at least those that are actually pumped out instead of illegally dumped)--and without the use of ANY toxic chemicals.

Federal laws requiring all boats with toilets to either treat or hold went into effect on Jan 1, 1980...31.5 years ago. Statistically, only about 5% of boats with toilets have, or are likely to have, treatment devices because the price and power demand is higher than most smaller boats can afford. So it's mostly larger vessels that treat. The remaining 95% SHOULD already be holding...and at least 90% of 'em are....and no new "no discharge" law is gonna convince very many hold-outs to change their ways. But when politicians go after boats, they always position a proposed need for new "no discharge" laws as impacting hundreds or even thousands of boats, when in fact the only boats that are really impacted are those few who have, or would have, treatment devices.

So it's not really a matter of "boats are a miniscule part of the problem," it's actually a matter of how to encourage better, more affordable solutions to onboard waste management than a tank.
 

ronbo

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Jan 2, 2009
46
gozzard 44B mkll md
Thinwater,

Here's a link to a recent EPA Report on LectraSan discharge.
There was an attempt last year, as Peggy mentioned, to ram through a law to make the Chesapeake Bay a NDZ. Once the facts were revealed at hearings in Annapolis it was shown to be a senseless law not dealing with the real polluters of this watershed.

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/pubs/600r10008/600r10008.pdf

Ronbo
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
That's a very interesting report, Ron...

I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for the link!

I love it that the EPA admits it didn't follow the testing standards required by the CFR, so there was no dilution of solids by urine or flush water, yet they STILL verified the value of onboard treatment.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,680
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Thinwater,

Here's a link to a recent EPA Report on LectraSan discharge.
There was an attempt last year, as Peggy mentioned, to ram through a law to make the Chesapeake Bay a NDZ. Once the facts were revealed at hearings in Annapolis it was shown to be a senseless law not dealing with the real polluters of this watershed.

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/pubs/600r10008/600r10008.pdf

Ronbo
Perfect. Thanks.


It seems clear that the Electroscan is a very efficient sterilization tool, and I believe the best available for small boats. I agree that adding new ZDZ is generally off the mark--better management is almost always going to be enough. But as for saying the effluent is clean? No. The BOD5 removal in the EPA test in the above link was only about 18% (90-95% removal is a reasonable design basis for a stationary facility) and the removal of other nutrients varied from 0-55%, which is not very impressive either. It missed the major EPA treatment standards by 20-50X. Granted the effluent was much more concentrated, but only about 10X. I repeat, the Electro Scan system is a sterilization unit, not a treatment system in the sense that is suggested. Any BOD, TSS, or nutrient removal that takes place is coincidental.

We have skipped the subject of hazardous chlorinated secondary products. It is not generally considered good practice to chlorinate strong waste because large amounts of chloro-compounds are formed. I have done lab trials of such processes, and often the effluent is more toxic than the feed. I assume that is the case here, in the absence of other evidence. Since we are not drinking the wastewater, it is not a human health hazard.

I'm not saying that there isn't a place for Type 1 systems, but it silly to pretend they are zero discharge. There are a places a sewer should not discharge either--places where there is poor tidal flushing or exposure to swimming beaches--and Herring Bay is one such area. There are many such areas, though not ZDZs, where any application for a shore side discharge would be sumarily dismissed; I've been on the other side of that one. There are far more boats in this area than there are homes, so marine pollution can be material. Moaning that there are not enough pump-out stations in the Chesapeake is plain false; there are many and most are open 12 months. I've never had to go more than a few hundred yards out of my way. Other areas, other situations and solutions.
________________________________

I have 30 years expereince as chemical engineer in refinery and waster plant design and operation. I have skipped many details in the above discussion.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
One thing you may be missing...

You said, "We have skipped the subject of hazardous chlorinated secondary products...."

The ElectroScan/Lectra/San creates hypochlorous acid by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current...a process that only lasts as long as the 2 minute "treatment cycle." When the stimulous--electrical current--is removed, the solution reverts to salt water...so there is no hazardous chlorinated product going into the water.

However, the PuraSan does require the use of added chlorine, but on average, each flush is only 1/2-1 gallon of "sanitized" effluent, so the amount is miniscule...and what little there is, evaporates very quickly (as any swimming pool owner can testify), so it's certainly FAR less damaging the environment than an illegally dumped tankful of waste laced with formaldehyde, gluteraldehyde or quaternary ammonium compounds (the chemicals most commonly used in tank products).

You said, "I'm not saying that there isn't a place for Type 1 systems, but it's silly to pretend they are zero discharge..."

No one is pretending they are. But it's equally silly to pretend that requiring just 5 more boats of every 100...25 in every 500...50 in every 1,000...to abandon treatment and hold instead will have ANY noticeable impact.

However, Raritan's own tests about 10 years ago indicated that 1000 vessels, all equipped with Type I, gathered in the same area for 24, all flushing "normally" for that length of time, would have less negative impact on the surrounding waters than just ONE illegally dumped tank...and regrettably, more tanks are illegally dumped than pumped...as illustrated by this recent informal survey on a powerboat owners site:

Almost always pump out. 62.92%

Almost always use the macerator 19.10%

A healthy mix 10.11%

I am afraid to tell the truth cuz the green police are everywhere! 7.87%

Notice that NO ONE claimed they NEVER dump the tank.

A survey in the late 90s of pumpout use in October on the east coast Intracoastal, when snow birds were headed south in droves (flocks?) asked marinas to keep track of how many boats pumped out in 30 days. The maximum reported number of pumpouts at any marina was 8!

And something no one has yet mentioned here: sewage treatment plant spills. It's a little known fact that more than 100 east coast (primarily in New England) county and municipal treatment plants are exempt from meeting EPA water quality standards--and have been since before there were any marine sanitation laws--because their systems are too old or too small or otherwise unable to do it and they cannot afford the cost to repair/upgrade/expand. I've always considered it to be the ultimate irony that a major spill from a plant in Providence RI on the very day that RI's statewide ND law went into effect closed all the beaches and shellfish beds in that half of Narragansett Bay for a week!

So it seems to me that we'd have MUCH cleaner waters if all boats were required to use treatment devices INSTEAD of holding tanks! :dance:

Btw...thanks for making this a measured REASONED discussion instead of the usual knee-jerk parroting of propaganda that this topic so often turns into!
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,003
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Interesting as always. The sewage "treatment" plant in Sausalito, just south of the Richardson Bay Marine Preserve, goes nuclear every winter, many times each year, when it, doh, rains! Then they get "fined" but it's the same govenrment (state vs. local) essentially fining itself with our taxpayer dollars. They oughta take the fines and fix the damn plant. And stop picking on boaters as the source of all evil.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,680
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
You said, "We have skipped the subject of hazardous chlorinated secondary products...."

The ElectroScan/Lectra/San creates hypochlorous acid by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current...a process that only lasts as long as the 2 minute "treatment cycle." When the stimulous--electrical current--is removed, the solution reverts to salt water...so there is no hazardous chlorinated product going into the water.

However, the PuraSan does require the use of added chlorine, but on average, each flush is only 1/2-1 gallon of "sanitized" effluent, so the amount is miniscule...and what little there is, evaporates very quickly (as any swimming pool owner can testify), so it's certainly FAR less damaging the environment than an illegally dumped tankful of waste laced with formaldehyde, gluteraldehyde or quaternary ammonium compounds (the chemicals most commonly used in tank products).

You said, "I'm not saying that there isn't a place for Type 1 systems, but it's silly to pretend they are zero discharge..."

No one is pretending they are. But it's equally silly to pretend that requiring just 5 more boats of every 100...25 in every 500...50 in every 1,000...to abandon treatment and hold instead will have ANY noticeable impact.

However, Raritan's own tests about 10 years ago indicated that 1000 vessels, all equipped with Type I, gathered in the same area for 24, all flushing "normally" for that length of time, would have less negative impact on the surrounding waters than just ONE illegally dumped tank...and regrettably, more tanks are illegally dumped than pumped...as illustrated by this recent informal survey on a powerboat owners site:

Almost always pump out. 62.92%

Almost always use the macerator 19.10%

A healthy mix 10.11%

I am afraid to tell the truth cuz the green police are everywhere! 7.87%

Notice that NO ONE claimed they NEVER dump the tank.

A survey in the late 90s of pumpout use in October on the east coast Intracoastal, when snow birds were headed south in droves (flocks?) asked marinas to keep track of how many boats pumped out in 30 days. The maximum reported number of pumpouts at any marina was 8!

And something no one has yet mentioned here: sewage treatment plant spills. It's a little known fact that more than 100 east coast (primarily in New England) county and municipal treatment plants are exempt from meeting EPA water quality standards--and have been since before there were any marine sanitation laws--because their systems are too old or too small or otherwise unable to do it and they cannot afford the cost to repair/upgrade/expand. I've always considered it to be the ultimate irony that a major spill from a plant in Providence RI on the very day that RI's statewide ND law went into effect closed all the beaches and shellfish beds in that half of Narragansett Bay for a week!

So it seems to me that we'd have MUCH cleaner waters if all boats were required to use treatment devices INSTEAD of holding tanks! :dance:

Btw...thanks for making this a measured REASONED discussion instead of the usual knee-jerk parroting of propaganda that this topic so often turns into!



The whole subject of determining what is important "pollution" and what is not is NEVER simple. Infection we can all agree on, and the Electro Scan does much better in that regard than combined sewers and other plants that by-pass. A certain amount of TSS isn't really any different than a shovel full of soil that washes off a road, construction site, or field. BOD5 when strictly from sterilized human waste is little different than a pile of rotting leaves. I think the problem in Herring Bay is unique--huge marinas, no flow, and swimming beaches.

The secondary byproducts I was mentioning are things like chloramines, halomethanes, and some potentially carcinogenic products that have been much discussed in the chlorination of tap water. Some dissipate, all are toxic, and some are very persistent. I agree the chlorine reisidual is small, well within normal treatment ranges, and of no importance.

I agree that holding tank treatments laced with biocides are detrimental (and I think we both think pointless). Although the ingredients are generally biodegradable, they will often pass through a POTW. I wouldn't use them any more than I would pour pesticides down my home drain.

On dumping, I'll tell the truth: once a few gallons shortly after I bought my current boat, to test the plumbing, and a few times over 3 miles out on long runs. Never in the Chesapeake, simply because everywhere I get gas gives free pump-outs, as does my marina (slip holders). Your statistics are depressing but plausible. The POTW situation is... embarrassing.

If there is take-away from this it is that we need to keep lobbying for affordable pump-outs. The Chesapeake area is reasonable, some are not.
 

ronbo

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Jan 2, 2009
46
gozzard 44B mkll md
We have to do better than pumpouts. I've seen many pumpouts inoperative; located in too shallow water; many overworked on weekends when weekend warriors are impatiently queued up; decommissioned during off-season, etc.

And the biggest insult is when municipal sanitation plants are overwhelmed with heavy rainfall it all ends up in the Bay, untreated. It's estimated. that nearly a millions gallons of untreated sewage is dumped in the Bay each DAY.

I have no stake in Raritan or any manufacturer of MSDs but new technology may be the answer. By creating more NDZs there is no incentive for R&D on this issue.

Ronbo
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
I agree with Ron..

If there is take-away from this it is that we need to keep lobbying for affordable pump-outs.

I disagree, Drew. Increased pumpout affordability/availability isn't the solution...there'd be no noticeable decrease in the number of people who'd dump instead of pump if there were a free pumpout at every slip and on the fuel dock in every marina. Besides, affordability/availability has already been covered by the the "Clean Vessel Act of 1992" which provides federal grant money to marinas that covers up to 75% of the cost of installing pumpouts...and any marina that uses grant money can only charge a maximum of $5 for a pumpout. So why doesn't EVERY marina have a pumpout paid for with our tax money? Because the cost to install is only the first verse...pumpouts are highly maintenance intensive, and the cost to keep the d'd thing up and running is simply more than many marinas can afford.

Ron is right...we HAVE to do better than just adding more pumpouts...and the answer is indeed in new affordable technology--which I believe we could have gone a long way toward getting in the 30+ years since US marine sanitation laws went into effect if those to whom even word "sewage" creates an irrational knee-jerk response weren't so determined to push their "no discharge anywhere" agenda. There hasn't been any NEW treatment TECHNOLOGY since the Lectra/San was invented in the mid-'70s. Why? Because no company can afford to invest the kind of R&D money required to come up with a "better mousetrap" if they don't know whether they can ever put it on the market.

The "Tea Party" is changing the face of American politics...maybe what boat owners need to solve this problem is our own Pee Party! :D :dance:
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,680
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Many good points...

... and it's depressing so many are both cynical and correct. I've never visited a pump-out that was either busy, out-of-order, or decommissioned. Just lucky I guess. Or I simply arrange my pump-outs for places I know are convenient to me.

I can't imagine reliable treatment much simpler than Electro Scan; you either have to make your own reactant with electricity (several options, but all require lots of amps), carry reactive chemicals (so much worse), or have time and space that doesn't make sense in a mobile system. For a portion of the community, nothing will ever be cheaper and simpler than macerating.

I give up. Humans are like rabbits: we will eventually over crowd and destroy everything and wonder why that happened. It will take time but it is our nature. It's in our DNA. But a lecture on international family planning would definitely constitute thread drift!
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,918
- - LIttle Rock
One wild idea kept running through my mind today...

You're right that anything is gonna require power...but I can see a day when maybe infrared light could be a biocide...or even radiation. Nuclear power is already being used to power some navy vessels and even some freighters and tankers. It's not gonna happen soon, but at the rate technology is advancing it's not totally out of the question that recreational vessels could also be nuclear powered someday...who knows what the future could bring.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,003
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I can just see the a$$hole boat's skipper who is my (unfortunately) next door neighbor. He's been plugged in for 5 years and hasn't been down to his boat in 6.

Can't wait for his reactor to settle down...

But a lecture on international family planning would definitely constitute thread drift!

Nope, sounds reasonable to me. Care to start a thread on anchors, coffee or the "need" for generators on 22 foot boats?

I think we still seem to recognize that our footprints as sailors are a LOT less than the shore-based contaminants that foul our water.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,680
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Also Deltaville, VA and certain bays near Virginia Beach, VA

Btw, there's only ONE NDZ on the whole Chesapeake Bay: Herring Bay. The discharge of treated waste from a CG Certified Type I or II MSD is legal everywhere else on the Bay...

http://www.deq.virginia.gov/tmdl/ndz.html
There are also a number of active applications, but I don't know the politics.

Additionally, several bays attached to, though not formally part of the Chesapeake.
http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/nps/success319/va_3bays.cfm
 
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