Folding vs Fixed Prop STW?

jon hansen · Mar 30, 2021

there you are, thankyou, not science. now tell king's. he doesn't understand.

if PHRF ain't political, then why does each great lake have different ratings for the same boat? i rest my case. 6 macs on a sled. thats like 9 days at sea. that's like nothing. 9 days is a joke. 900 days and we'll talk.

honestly, i don't much care for racing. to much standing around at the bar. i'd rather be sailing.

phrf is way better than ior. ior boats were the worst. the mac races, do they still use phrf?

you said my accusations were ''false". the politics are real. there is no science. rings true to me.

all rating systems are flawed. you can't get around it. it ain't science. that said, i know that a lot of good people try real hard to do their best so many can have a fun time. this is good. real good. i thank you for those efforts.

sorry i ruffled your feathers. just keeping it real.

jon hansen · Mar 31, 2021

jumpstart, look, what you do is great for the sailors on the lakes. i have many friends that love racing. it all happens because of your efforts along with others. this is really generous of you and the others. i raced in phrf and enjoyed it for what it was. you know that an old 42' CCA style yawl like mine with a phrf rating of 159 is a dog. but under your rules on a down wind offshore course like the mac's i can beat your sleds. off the wind in a blow i can romp. i get my rating because i'm slow by modern boats to weather. so there it is. if the wind is on the nose i'm dfl. off the wind i get a trophy. i'm good with that. it's fun either way. i just love the sailing. every dog has it's day. my boat and my skills are up to par. what you guys do for the sailors is wonderful.

we were just trying to explain to the OP that his trying to figure out what props to drag using PHRF as science does not work. dragging a 3 bladed prop in the light air all night will be horrificly slow. we drifted off topic.
i do not want to bad mouth you guys that work so hard so many can have fun.

thanks for all you do!

jon hansen · Mar 31, 2021

and jumpstart, 8 years ago my aorta blew up like a 3/4 oz spinnaker in a 90mph puff. was standing next to a vascular surgeon when it blew. i had maybe 5 - 6 minutes to live. that guy gutted me, patched me, patched me again a week later. oh, it hurt. should be dead. but i ain't.

it's good to be around to chat about sailing. and chatting like sailing has different speeds of wind.

fair winds!

jon hansen · Mar 31, 2021

yeah, a lot of racers are confused about the knowledge gained at sea on ships. first year i sailed was on the fitzgerald. the day it sank i was just east of long point when the storm slammed in. headed for lacawana. was a bosun then. we fought hard to save the boat and our lives. so what does a ship sailor learn that is so important when racing, to win, on a sailboat. being a trained helmsman is huge. years behind a wheel will teach one many things. but the most important lesson learned is weather. running in a race anyone can do. wanna win. wanna win all the time. you need to understand the weather. you need to understand the wind as it crosses the surface of the earth. the racer that places his vessel in higher winds for longer time during the race wins every time. you wanna learn what i know. read bethwaite.
running the rivers and lakes and harbors in giant ships you have to be an expert on the wind. predicting it and dealing with it. it takes years and years to get it right. the yachtsman just hasn't put in the time. how could he. the closest you can get is to be a student of bethwaite. he was the greatest weather guy ever and how it applied to sailboats.

coming up though the ranks on the ships, no of the old clunkers i prefered had autopilots. wind, current, rain, snow, shallow, deep, .... you better be on course. not one degree off, on course. or you would not be driving for a captain very long.

skills come from practice, years and years of practice.

winning is about the wind.

dlochner · Mar 31, 2021

Jumpstart said:
I'm going to be kind here. But Mr Hansen and Lochner made statements and accusations that are patently untrue.
1. PHRF isn't perfect.
2. Not all PHRF areas are the same. In fact most don't actively handicap. They just copy numbers out of the national PHRF book.
3. PHRF areas usually use an average wind condition for the area when assessing handicaps. Thus the difference in ratings sometimes between areas.
4. The smaller the PHRF region the less reliable the handicaps.
5. Most area give a 6 sec/mi credit for a 2 bladed prop. That is 2 boat lengths/mi in 10 knots of air.
6. Boats that either perform well in light air or or heavy air tend to have uneven results. Most PHRF areas have liberal weight limits but do limit crew weight so light air boats can't put 15 on the rail when the wind pipes up.
7. PHRF groups assume that you have boat prep, sails, and crew competency equal to the rating band you are competing in. Handicappers being experienced racers assess that. Around here if you rate around hundred you better have good crew, newer laminate sails, a smooth and clean bottom and an experienced skipper. Absent that you won't be competitive. That holds true for any handicap system.

I'm really sorry that you guys are unhappy about not winning unless it is a luck dog day for you. My guess is that no current rating system is going to make you happy. I've worked hard to optimize my boat, train a crew, and buy the best sails I can afford ( not to be confused with the most expensive sails). I'm still learning every time I go out. I have raced on 35 different types of boats in the 37 years I've been racing. I have also given back to the sport serving on a regional handicap board for 30 years and on the US Sailing national board and national appeals board. I'm most proud of the people who started racing with me and have gone on to buy and race boats. I will always take on crew that want to learn. View attachment 192234

I've raced in IOR, MORC, IMS, Americap, IRC, ORR, and this year ORC. Pretty much have seen the positives and negatives of all the modern handicap rules. The big difference is that I take the handicaps for what they are and try to succeed within limitations. You guys seem to think the handicap systems should conform to how you want to outfit your boat and race. Good luck with that. You are much better at whining about inequities of handicap racing on a sailing forum. That's fine if you want to cruise but don't complain about the people who want to race.

I am aware of three amateur sports where handicaps are used to even the playing field, golf, bowling, and sailing. There may be others, these are the ones I am aware of.

Two of those sports handicap the individual, one handicaps the equipment. Two of those amateur sports base the handicap on an independent variable, one bases the handicap on a dependent variable.

The handicapping systems used by two of those sports encourage skill development and reward skill development. One system rewards writing checks.

Participation in racing fleets and regattas has significantly declined over the past 2 decades for many reasons, not the least of which the dominant handicapping system is deeply flawed and the politics of the organization discourage newcomers and developing sailors who came to the sport later in life.

Can you imagine the uproar if local amateur golf leagues started handicapping players based on the clubs they used? Or the golf balls they hit?

@Jumpstart if you are willing to face the realities of the flawed system you are trying to defend, you might start with the linked article below. There is a better way, but the powers to be in the sport aren't willing to change their winning ways. God forbid they don't win every race.

Individual Handicaps and Fleet Racing

www.sv-secondstar.net

DougM · Mar 31, 2021

This discussion is interesting. However, I have reached the point where I don’t particularly care about handicap ratings any more. My boat isn’t a particularly good racer anyway.
My only reason now for a folding prop is that Yanmar recommends that the transmission remain in neutral while sailing, and I can’t stand the sound of a constantly rotating fixed blade prop. I will admit that there is probably about a half knot advantage over the fixed blade prop for what its worth.

Jumpstart · Mar 31, 2021

All racing has been declining for years. PHRF is a small part of the decline. Big factors are decreased disposable income for the middle classes, decreased time available due to family commitments, increased costs of boats, dockage, storage and sails. DJL, has your harebrained handicap system caught on yet?

Davidasailor26 · Mar 31, 2021

dlochner said:
I am aware of three amateur sports where handicaps are used to even the playing field, golf, bowling, and sailing. There may be others, these are the ones I am aware of.

Two of those sports handicap the individual, one handicaps the equipment. Two of those amateur sports base the handicap on an independent variable, one bases the handicap on a dependent variable.

The handicapping systems used by two of those sports encourage skill development and reward skill development. One system rewards writing checks.

Participation in racing fleets and regattas has significantly declined over the past 2 decades for many reasons, not the least of which the dominant handicapping system is deeply flawed and the politics of the organization discourage newcomers and developing sailors who came to the sport later in life.

Can you imagine the uproar if local amateur golf leagues started handicapping players based on the clubs they used? Or the golf balls they hit?

@Jumpstart if you are willing to face the realities of the flawed system you are trying to defend, you might start with the linked article below. There is a better way, but the powers to be in the sport aren't willing to change their winning ways. God forbid they don't win every race.

Individual Handicaps and Fleet Racing

www.sv-secondstar.net

Very interesting article, but I personally disagree with your thesis. I think sailboat racing, using any existing handicap system, is intended to have the sailor who has the better day relative to their competitors win. That is fundamentally different from golf or bowling, where the competitor that wins is the one who had a better day relative to their own average ability. I think if a mediocre sailor has a great personal day but loses to a great sailor who had a mediocre day that’s fair; learn more and improve to get better, don’t expect the handicap system to give you what some would call a participation trophy. And whether you use PHRF or a more mathematical model that result won’t change. I would also point out that golf and bowling don’t just handicap the competitor - they handicap the combination of competitor and equipment. If I wanted to game the system I could go out and get my golf handicap using old wooden clubs, then show up at a tournament with new technology and have an automatic boost of probably 5 strokes.

The place where PHRF struggles, and you rightly point out leads to checkbook competitions, is in the inability to accurately handicap all the (rather expensive) changes that can be made to a boat. Even using the OP’s folding prop question as an example, there is no way the 9 second/mile fixed prop adjustment comes close to equity with a folding prop where I sail. Buying the folding prop was a $2K investment in better corrected time. Spend a few thousand on new sails and you don’t suffer any PHRF penalty at all - the system just isn’t precise enough to take all those variables into account. In that sense I agree with you that a system that takes median performance of a specific boat, rather than a class, into account might be more equitable.

dlochner · Mar 31, 2021

Jumpstart said:
All racing has been declining for years. PHRF is a small part of the decline. Big factors are decreased disposable income for the middle classes, decreased time available due to family commitments, increased costs of boats, dockage, storage and sails. DJL, has your harebrained handicap system caught on yet?

I receive 4 to 5 inquiries a year about alternatives to PHRF and in particular moving away from handicapping boats to handicapping skipper/boat combinations. The Portsmouth rating system does offer a service to provide inidividual ratings for skipper/boat combinations. In the UK, and in particular Ireland a system is in use to handicap individual boats, not classes of boats.

By the way, the use of pejorative language in a discussion only points to the weakness of the user's arguments. Likewise ad hominem attacks are irrelevant and again show the weakness of the users arguments.

A more credible discussion could be forthcoming if you had actually read and understood the points I was making while suspending preconceived notions about the current system.

Jumpstart · Mar 31, 2021

Doug, doesn't your boat have skeglet in front of the prop? If you had a fixed prop locked in reverse wouldn't most of the prop be hidden behind the skeglet? I have had 3 yanmars, all with folding props. I lock the transmission in reverse after adjusting the shaft when racing. Not much rotational pressure on the prop when folded.

Jackdaw · Mar 31, 2021

I don’t have the time or inclination to read all of this, but here’s what I can tell you. The credit you get for a non-folding prop is the absolute best you’re ever going to see. +3 seconds? LOL. Normally the actual deficit in lighter air is probably closer to 30 seconds a mile if not more. Thinking that you can game the system with the fixed prop is a fools errand.

DougM · Mar 31, 2021

Jumpstart said:
Doug, doesn't your boat have skeglet in front of the prop? If you had a fixed prop locked in reverse wouldn't most of the prop be hidden behind the skeglet? I have had 3 yanmars, all with folding props. I lock the transmission in reverse after adjusting the shaft when racing. Not much rotational pressure on the prop when folded.

That’s true, but I just opted to follow Yanmar recommendations early on, even though I didn’t really agree with the logic. Besides, at my age, to get down into the aft cabin, lift up the mattress, the board below it, reach across, make sure the mark on the shaft is in the right place, then lock it, isn’t worth the effort. The folding prop and leaving it in neutral is just easier.

Jumpstart · Mar 31, 2021

DJL- In horse racing do they handicap the horse or the jockey? Horse racing has been declining for years. Is it the handicap system or a myriad of other factors. Tennis at the amateur level has also been declining for years. USTA has a rating system based on results of an individual. Not too different from your idea. People compete in rating bands. That system is gamed all the time by judiciously adjusting your performance negatively to lower or maintain your rating. BTW- harebrained was a reference to your system not a reference to you personally. I find most all of your posts entertaining and informative.

Jumpstart · Mar 31, 2021

Doug, understand the age thing. With a beautiful boat like the 323 I am surprised you haven't attracted a nimble younger lady for that job. A tip one of my crew taught me. Motor upwind at least 5 knots. turn off the engine and drop it into gear. The majority of the time the prop rotates to the proper position. We do that and it has greatly reduced having to hand turn the prop shaft to the desired position. A job my wife is not always eager to do.

jon hansen · Mar 31, 2021

ask a better question, you'll get a better answer. example: when sailing from A to B what will my % increase in average speed be by switching from a 3 bladed prop to a folding prop. then the answer would cover all wind speeds and directions. this will cover real world expectations about sailing a vessel from A to B.
racers do this. they sail from A to B. but real world observations are that most cruisers motor so much that the need/benifits to switch props is pointless.

dlochner · Mar 31, 2021

Jumpstart said:
DJL- In horse racing do they handicap the horse or the jockey?

My father was one of those annoying types at the race track, whenever he bet on a horse he had to go to the betting window twice, once to bet and once to collect his winnings. He tried to explain his system which included, the horse's past performance, the jockey, and the trainer and a few other characteristics. My eyes glazed over and decided it was better to stick with my method, betting on the horse's name. He came home with full pockets, I came home with empty pockets, not sure who had more fun.

The fundamental flaw in PHRF is the notion that unequal boats can be made equal irrespective of the skipper/owner, the location, level of competition, and any of the other myriad factors that go into consistent performance. There was a time PHRF tried a skipper rating to be factored into the PHRF rating, but that really didn't pan out. This has led to the many rating adjustments that PHRF has to try and compensate for oversized sails, long spin poles, folding props, etc. In response to this, my first and main point is so long as PRHF continues use the same paradigm for developing ratings, i.e., trying to make unequal boats equal, the handicapping system will remain forever flawed.

The system I proposed, rating the boat and the skipper as one unit and ignoring how other boats of the same type perform, should be considered as a demonstration project, not a final product. In my writings, I make this point several times, in its current form it is only valid in a closed set of race results, the same boats racing each other at the same time. I lack the math skills, time, and inclination to try to develop a full fledged approach. However, I am willing to work with anyone to demonstrate the system, this past year I have been working with a small club on the Chesapeake on this system.

If you have ever taken a SAT, GRE, LSAT or had your child evaluated by a school psychologist (I'm a retired school psychologist) the scores you received were based on the difference from the mean. This method is basically the same method that I have used. It works for high stakes decision making, it will work for handicapping yacht races.

One unintended consequence, but potentially very useful consequence of the method I propose is that provides a methodology for assessing changes in the boat's performance. It makes possible a data based objective measure of changes in real life conditions. How much faster is that new main sail? Did that bottom job pay off? Is crew training improving our performance? With enough data it is possible to fine tune the questions, does an extra crew member help or hurt performance? in what kind of conditions? Again if someone is interested, let me know and I'll be glad to help out.

Terry Cox · Mar 31, 2021

No racer here. Perfectly happy with our fixed three blade prop performance. Does a marvelous job in maneuvering our 35,000 pound boat, whether backing, turning, moving sideways, etc. Spins freely while under sail.

dLj · Mar 31, 2021

BarryL said:
If you're a cruiser, someone who enjoys being on a boat and going places, and doesn't really care if you get there in 3 hours or 6 hours, who will motor when the wind is light, who won't constantly adjust your headsail sheet, car position, backstay, traveler, etc, and doesn't care if you're going 6.1 or 6. kts, then a fixed 3 blade prop is probably OK for you.

There is an assumption above that is not my case, "If you're a cruiser...doesn't care if you're going 6.1 or 6. kts". I'm a cruiser, and cruising is not as simple as this implies. Of course, I'm talking passage making, not costal cruising. So perhaps that's a difference. In passage making, getting there as quickly as possible minimizes risk by spending less time in the open ocean. Getting enough speed also allows one to watch for and possibly avoid the worst of a storm by changing tack. So I don't think this should be dismissed quite so quickly. In fact I am quite concerned with speed. Now the whole PHRF system is of no concern to me, but the discussion of what is realistic in terms of speed gained by moving away from a fixed blade to a folding or feathering prop is of great interest to me.

If as you suggest it's only a matter of 0.1 kts, then it may not be worth the cost. But if truly it's more like 0.5 kts, or more, then the cost/benefit may well be worth it.

dj