flat groove to boltrope main sail

[aco]

Hello everybody,
I sail Alpa 9.5 boat (year 1974), very fine boat, S&S design. I want to use it's rooling boom at least to furl if not to reef the main sail. For that reason I need to use boltrope sail instead of flat slides. How to convert flat groove of the mast to round one using materials from the store. Thank you!

 

[Will Gilmore]

Welcome to SBO, aco. It's always good to have someone from across the pond join our crew.
The Alpa 9.5 looks like a very fine boat. If you could include a photo or two of your mast and track, it might be easier to help. Is it possible that there is a bolt track underneath the flat track?

I'm sure the amazing sailors on this forum will be able to help.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[jssailem]

Welcome to the forum ACO.
I have not seen an ALPA 9.5. I see in Sailboatdata that it is an Italian made yacht. Nice looking hull design.

Not sure about your quest. "Roll furler on the boom" project. In addition to the issue of "slides", which I suspect are metal, you have the problem of sail bulk (assuming you have a vintage sail) which will make getting a decent sail shape when boom roll reefed difficult.

The utilization of slab reefing (lowering the sail, letting it fall into slab folds on the boom then trimming the sail above the slabs) gives you a trimmed sail above the boom and the slabs gathered up on the boom to clean up the look. It gives you a quick and easy method of trimming the sail for your conditions.

Then idea of the roller boom reefing may require, if sail trim is important, a newer sail that is designed and cut to accommodate the rolled up form. This may require altering the mast track to a luff slot and a luff rope on the sail. These alterations do impact the sail function i.e. sails with luff ropes can be slower to drop than a slide/track sail. But compromise is in the nature of boat ownership.

As Will has suggested pictures of your boat are always enjoyed. They even help some of the engineer trained members come up with creative ideas..

Best of luck. It is your boat and you get to make the decisions. As it should be.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

in my opinion, roller furling booms suck. Very poor sail shape and slow to furl. I'll take slab every time.

 

[aco]

Thank you for your welcome reply. The mast track and the goosneck are seen in the picture attached. I am using original setup, it works, but there is a lot of winding and inserting slides to the mast groove - not conveniant.

Nowdays I use battery drill machine with some bigger torque to make furling fast - the problem is inserting slides to the mast. If the drop is somewhat slower, this is not problem, it can be an advantage: when furling, I pull the sail down anyway it is better not to fall free. Changing the angle of the boom when furling helps getting around the problem with the distance between the tack and the mast, too.
I know that this solution is far from ideal. But I have a different concern, that is I am getting rather rusty (old, new hips, etc). I can not utilize slab reefing, it takes at least two, I can not afford to bring all comands into cockpit, lazy jacs, lazy bags there is no room for all the lines needeed, they would also spoil the estetics of the boat. I intend to get new sail that's easy, mast track is the problem.
Thanks again, regards, Aco

 

[jssailem]

Nice picture of the gooseneck.

It looks like the gooseneck is in a slot in the mast.

Does the slot extend all the way to the top of the Mast?

Do you have sail slugs (the middle fitting) or slides (the metal lower fitting)?

If you have the groove/slot in the mast, you can take your sail to a loft (or you can talk with the maker of your new sail) and see if they can install a "bolt rope" instead of the slugs to fit into the groove on the mast.

The metal slide fits a track and the mast track will not work with a bolt rope.

 

[jssailem]

Here is a look at various reefing methods.

How To Reef A Sail – A Beginners Guide

Does the idea of strong winds when out sailing freak you out? Plenty of sailors miss great sailing days for fear of squalls or increasing winds. But even if you do get caught out with strong winds approaching, you don't need to worry. Once you learn how to reef a sail, you'll be able to...

www.theadventurejunkies.com

 

[DrJudyB]

If I understand your question correctly, I don’t think you can do what you want, and a sailmaker can’t help you do it either. Tthat mast will not accommodate a bolt rope, no matter what you do to the sail. You would need a new mast.


If the groove in the mast is flat/ rectangular, it will not accommodate a bolt rope for the luff.

Another way to say it is this: If the mast uses a flat plastic slide, like the flat white one shown in jsalem’s picture above (which I believe should have been credited to www.Sailrite.com) it will not accommodate a bolt rope. You would have to modify the mast and I don’t know any way to do that.
Judy B
Sailmaker

 

[jssailem]

Judy is absolutely correct. Upon review of meta data of a still image posted on the internet without attribution, I discovered the source was a 2007 video produced by Sailrite.

It is good that someone knows these historical images. I certainly did not have an image like that in my gallery. It was intended to help the Poster try and identify the issue described as "flat slides". I get no financial return from any image posted above.

 

[TomY]

Thank you for your welcome reply. The mast track and the goosneck are seen in the picture attached. I am using original setup, it works, but there is a lot of winding and inserting slides to the mast groove - not conveniant.

Nowdays I use battery drill machine with some bigger torque to make furling fast - the problem is inserting slides to the mast. If the drop is somewhat slower, this is not problem, it can be an advantage: when furling, I pull the sail down anyway it is better not to fall free. Changing the angle of the boom when furling helps getting around the problem with the distance between the tack and the mast, too.
I know that this solution is far from ideal. But I have a different concern, that is I am getting rather rusty (old, new hips, etc). I can not utilize slab reefing, it takes at least two, I can not afford to bring all comands into cockpit, lazy jacs, lazy bags there is no room for all the lines needeed, they would also spoil the estetics of the boat. I intend to get new sail that's easy, mast track is the problem.
Thanks again, regards, Aco

I think you have a standard 60's-70's roller furling boom set up. In that case, you can use slides on the luff of main that fit your mast track.

The trick is to use a line, I think it's called a Jack line. The jack line is tied to the bottom grommet on the luff of your main. The line threads through the flat slides, for 3 or 4' up the luff. The upper end of the jack line is then knotted to the nearest grommet.

Those lower 4-5 slides are loose and not attached to your sail, but those slides stay in the track on the main mast (the ones above the first 3'-4' are attached to the luff with webbing through grommets to flat slide).

When you raise the main, the jack line becomes taut and tightens the slides to the sails luff(you may have adjust the

When you douse the main, the lower slides stay in the track, the jack line slackens.

When you roller reef, the slides come out of the lower door on the mast slide. Feed them back in when you unroll the reef.

Everybody is right, slab reefing is superior and a little faster, but if you have a sail that is cut for the roller boom, they work fine.

I used one for over a decade on my boat. It gave a good flat deeply reefed mainsail shape. When it was time for a new main, I converted to slab reefing.

 

[aco]

I admire your boat I am sure you are proud on its beauty. Your proposal about Jack line is interesting, I might use it if I stayed with original set up.
But still: have you seen Tides Marine Track and Slide System. They offer custom designed PVC track to enter existing mast groove, but, unfortunatly, the upper side of the track is prepared for their slides only. I was hoping to find some track with the round groove on the upper side.
The other solution could be to use alu Keder Rails with some metal pieces to connect the two worlds together. But this is rather engineering thema, and I must not fatigue the sailors with it.

 

[PaulK]

Tom Y has it figured out, though we didn’t call it that. That pennant setup is what we had on a 40’ sloop with roller-furling that I crewed on. It was led through each slide and then through the corresponding grommet for that slide in the sail. We could loosen or untie the bottom end if we needed more slack. Make sure there’s an 8 knot to keep the slides from falling off if you untie it! Worked OK. Shouldn’t be overly expensive to have added to the existing sail - the same slides can be re-used.

 

[PaulK]

Found this thread Tides mainsail track longevity which discusses the Tides track mentioned above. If the pennant for the slides doesn’t work, posters in that thread also mention that Antal has an aluminum version which seems to hold up better than the Tides one.

 

[DrJudyB]

Installing jack lines on the luff of the mainsail won’t facilitate rolling the sail on the boom. The problem he wants to solve is that he has to manually reload each individual slide back into the mast when ever he uses the roller boom. That’s a pain.

Roller booms are not compatible with slides on mainsails. They are compatible with only with bolt ropes. His mast however, is not compatible with a bolt rope.

installing an external track on the mast would be a solution for converting to a bolt rope, but there are no commercial products available for that purpose, that I know of. Keter track, which the OP mentioned, is a round channel used for mounting the edge of canvas and the like using a soft rope “bead” tape similar to a luff tpae or bolt rope. We use keter track to mount nets on multihulls. But i don’t know of any similar product that is engineered for mounting sails to masts. Maybe one exits, but I don’t think there’s much demand for it.

Rolling booms are great for storing sails without any wrinkles or folds, but you cant have reefing lines reeved through the leech reefing hardware. The reefing lines at the leech would get tangled when rolling the sail onto the boom.

 

[sailme88]

Buongiorno ! We once owned a 1973 Bristol 32. So very close in age. It had a roller furling boom.. It was a very slow process to furl. The positive aspect was the ability to furl at large or small scale.. The sail used flat slide in the mast and rope on the boom. The previous owner had commissioned a new main sail with a roach. This sail had battens that started out parallel to the boom and followed the roach as they approached the mast head. This resulted in limiting the furling ability to half the sail size. Half isn't a problem unless you want to set a stay sail.

My current boat is slab reefed. With a TIDES system, the main can be hoisted or reefed with wind in the sail.

Ciao

 

[aco]

Installing jack lines on the luff of the mainsail won’t facilitate rolling the sail on the boom. The problem he wants to solve is that he has to manually reload each individual slide back into the mast when ever he uses the roller boom. That’s a pain.

Roller booms are not compatible with slides on mainsails. They are compatible with only with bolt ropes. His mast however, is not compatible with a bolt rope.

installing an external track on the mast would be a solution for converting to a bolt rope, but there are no commercial products available for that purpose, that I know of. Keter track, which the OP mentioned, is a round channel used for mounting the edge of canvas and the like using a soft rope “bead” tape similar to a luff tpae or bolt rope. We use keter track to mount nets on multihulls. But i don’t know of any similar product that is engineered for mounting sails to masts. Maybe one exits, but I don’t think there’s much demand for it.

Rolling booms are great for storing sails without any wrinkles or folds, but you cant have reefing lines reeved through the leech reefing hardware. The reefing lines at the leech would get tangled when rolling the sail onto the boom.

Hello Judy,
You understood completely my inquiery. I found the solution with Leisure furl Coastal solution. (please see their web side, Instalation Manual). I would like to buy from them: Luff track base extrusions, Bolt rope foil sections, Threaded luff slugs, Feeder assembly, Luff track sheave and1/4-20 machine screws for my mast about 30 feet long. I am not sure they would sell the products to an outsider, what do you think, how to approach?

Thank you for your time, Aco

 

[DrJudyB]

@aco,

That’s a clever idea. Forespar sells them thru a dealer network of riggers, so you’d have to find a rigger in Chile who willing to sell you a partial kit sans the actual boom (or find a distributor who will export parts to you in Chile).

I have no advice how to do that, sorry and I suspect it will be cost prohibitive. It’s not the kind of project I’d be interested in doing for profit, as a sailmaker.

You will need to figure out the details of how to feed the bolt rope from the boom into the track. The leisure furl system was expressly designed for the two components to work together. Integrating the two to work flawlessly is not a trivial accomplishment. It might be better to buy the whole system. Leisure furl is a very reliable system.

Judy B
Sailmaker.