Flanged seacocks installation with Beneteau grid liner?

Jun 11, 2004
1,714
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
'
I'm not trying to stir the pot but was reading an interesting article about this in "Marine Systems Excelence Emagazine"
and thought I'd pass along this excerpt:

Suitable Alloys
The requirement for corrosion resistance limits the range of materials from which seacocks and their related components may be made. Only bronze, DZR (more on that in a moment) brass, glass-reinforced plastic and, in some cases, stainless steel may be used. The terms “brass” and “bronze” encompass a wide range of copper alloys. The primary determining factor is zinc content. Zinc is an especially ignoble metal; it corrodes very easily when in the presence of other metals and an electrolyte, such as seawater, which is why it’s used in sacrificial anodes. Zinc, however, also imparts strength to copper, mixing the two, often in about a 40-60 ratio respectively, results in a brass suitable for clocks, lamps and cabin hardware, but most definitely not, with few exceptions, for seawater plumbing.
Copper-zinc alloys used below the waterline undergo a process called dezincification whereby the zinc corrodes from the alloy, leaving behind a pink, porous and very fragile structure that’s almost certain to fail. For the most part, true bronze alloys are zinc-free, their primary elements being copper and tin. Other alloying elements include silicon and nickel (technically making them something other than bronze, but still acceptable for use in seawater plumbing). These are the best alloys for use below the waterline because they are not susceptible to dezincification

Unfortunately, a huge range of alloys lies between true bronze with no, or very little zinc and true brass which contains a high percentage of zinc. Two common alloys often used in marine applications are 85-5-5-5 (or C83600) and DZR.

85-5-5-5 contains 85 percent copper, 5 percent zinc, 5 percent lead and 5 percent silicon and can be used below the waterline.

Some European manufacturers use something referred to as DZR brass, a dezincification-resistant brass alloy. This alloy has a higher zinc composition than many other copper alloys (30 percent or more), but it also includes trace amounts of other metals meant to retard zinc corrosion or leaching.

Neither of these alloys resists dezincification nearly as well as the zinc-free or near-zinc free bronze alternatives; but as they are less expensive and unlikely to become a problem in the early years of the boat’s life, they can be an attractive alternative for more cost conscious builder.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,984
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Historically bronzes were considered Cu-Sn alloys but current day bronzes are no longer following that old designation. Here's a direct quote from a modern document from the CDA (Copper Development Association):

2.3 Bronzes Traditionally, copper-tin alloys are associated with the word ‘bronze’. However, today, the term refers to Cu-Sn alloys with further alloy additions to give improved strength such as Cu-Sn-Zn alloys (gunmetals) and Cu-Sn-P (phosphor bronzes). Importantly, it also now covers copper alloys which do not have a tin addition but are considered to provide the high qualities associated with the word bronze including Cu-Si (silicon bronzes) and Cu-Al (aluminium bronzes). Bronzes have superior resistance to ammonia stress corrosion cracking compared with brasses(3).

A good document published by the CDA is linked below. It is titled "Copper Alloys for the Marine Environment":


dj
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,075
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
Beneteau itself state they only have a 5yr useable lifespan, which just matches the CE requirements.
I have presented a letter from Beneteau to Practical Sailor (courtesy of @Richard19068) which contradicts your claim of their saying five years useable span. Who should we believe ?

The applicable CE standard which requires that the material in question conform to ISO 6957 has been tested by an independant lab and found satisfactory. Do we believe them or you ?

So, from what you've presented to us here, you not only want us to believe you over the testing done by Practical Sailor but also want us to believe you over and above ISO 6957 as shown in your statement below :

That standard you posted is a test of the properties, not a long-term test or suitability test for thruhulls.
I'm quite sure the many people who belong to the worldwide federation of national standards bodies which in turn comprise the International Organization of Standardization (ISO) would be humbled to meet a self made genius such as yourself. Someone who does not bow down to scientific standards but relies on hand picked convenient anecdotes which suit his unsubstantiated thought of the day.

Unfortunately, I don't share their enthusiasm.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,984
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
I know exactly what DZR brass is. As I stated, I was a proponent of it, and defended its use in this application for a long time. I've been disabused of this opinion from seeing many examples of these boats, talking to many owners with problems, and reading about them in forums for many years.

That standard you posted is a test of the properties, not a long-term test or suitability test for thruhulls. Beneteau itself state they only have a 5yr useable lifespan, which just matches the CE requirements.
It always makes me skeptical when the explanation of a corrosion problem in the marine environment is based on what people say on the internet. I've seen many levels of misinformation generated that way. I can't say one way or the other on this particular issue because I haven't seen these thru hulls directly. Until I can, I can't offer an opinion.

I will also make the observation that ISO 6957 is a test to look at the resistance against stress corrosion cracking in an ammonia based environment. While it is a good test for making sure stress corrosion cracking does not occur in a tensioned thru-hull - it does not appear to me to be a test that predicts dezincification. But I don't know what test would be used for that end.

dj
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
248
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
I have presented a letter from Beneteau to Practical Sailor (courtesy of @Richard19068) which contradicts your claim of their saying five years useable span. Who should we believe ?

The applicable CE standard which requires that the material in question conform to ISO 6957 has been tested by an independant lab and found satisfactory. Do we believe them or you ?

So, from what you've presented to us here, you not only want us to believe you over the testing done by Practical Sailor but also want us to believe you over and above ISO 6957 as shown in your statement below :



I'm quite sure the many people who belong to the worldwide federation of national standards bodies which in turn comprise the International Organization of Standardization (ISO) would be humbled to meet a self made genius such as yourself. Someone who does not bow down to scientific standards but relies on hand picked convenient anecdotes which suit his unsubstantiated thought of the day.

Unfortunately, I don't share their enthusiasm.
Look, I don't know what your problem with me is, nor why you insist I'm putting myself out as an expert. Nor why you intentionally misquote me.

Just do some of your own googling around. There are disproportionate numbers of boats having problems with the thruhulls used by Beneteau, Jeaneau, and a few others. I make no claims other than my opinion on DZR brass, at least that being used by the manufacturers in question, has been changed by personal observation and reading of experiences of others.

Yes, this is anecdotal, but not from just one or two observations. Yes, this could be "electrolysis" (I'm just matching Beneteau's terminology) like Beneteau insists, but it is a surprising number of boats experiencing it next to others who don't. I don't have DZR thruhulls, so don't really care - and I would be happy to go back to defending this material in this application if I see evidence that the failures are not due to the material.

As for your linked ISO, you don't understand what it is testing. As for your own thruhull, you don't understand how you are testing. As for the CE regulation being 5yrs useable life, you can simply read it for yourself.

I'm not sure what you "proved" with Beneteau's response. All they state is that they tested to an ISO standard (which isn't applicable to the problem presented), and that all of their thruhulls must be professionally inspected inside and out every year. This latter speaks nothing to your claims like you state. It is also an eye-opener to the opposite of your claims, as I know of no other manufacturer stating something like this. If you read Beneteau's warranty, you will discover that it is a 10yr warranty, with the exception of the thruhulls being warranted for 5yrs. That speaks volumes to me. I know of no other manufacturer that specifically states a warranty on their thruhulls, let alone that warranty being less than that for the boat itself.

Mark
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
248
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
It always makes me skeptical when the explanation of a corrosion problem in the marine environment is based on what people say on the internet.
To be clear, I've never seen anyone explain a corrosion problem of these thruhulls. They just present that their thruhull failed. These failures could have nothing to do with corrosion, and could be a manufacturing/design issue instead. Beneteau is the only one who has presented an explanation of "electrolysis". Ignoring the technicalities of that term, it seems unlikely so many would have this problem, and that only they have the problem when in the same marinas and local areas as others without.

The issue could be anything or many things, but the statistics seem to be that thruhull failures with bronze and plastic are rather rare, while that of Beneteau and other's DZR are not rare.

I don't know what B and others are currently using, and this issue may be in the past and limited to a period of time. But the examples and complaints are out there for anyone willing to look.

Mark
 

Dave

Forum Admin, Gen II
Staff member
Feb 1, 2023
89
Hey Guys,

Debates and disagreements often lead to greater understanding of an issue, we all benefit from that. Just a gentle reminder to keep it civil and to the issue and not personal.

Thanks.
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,075
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
If you read Beneteau's warranty, you will discover that it is a 10yr warranty, with the exception of the thruhulls being warranted for 5yrs.
I still respectfully ask that you present something, anything presented by Beneteau that indicates their thru-hulls require attention due to excessive corrosion as you have stated previously:

Beneteau explicitly states these seacocks have a 5 year lifespan. The CE certificate it is built to only requires a 5yr lifespan on seacocks.
A search of Beneteau's web site produces the following warranty information on new boats :

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I think you will have to concede that this is nothing more than a typical warranty and certainly far better than I received from Hunter with my boat in 1998.

I do apologize, but without such validation from Beneteau I must label your statement as nothing more than disinformation.