Fire Extinguishers - What's in your galley?

[Leeward Rail]

need to have the dry chemical recharged every 6 years (Transport Canada).

A dry chemical extinguisher with a gauge lets you know if it still has pressure, but that can give you a false sense of security.

Unfortunately most of the dry chemical units have a design that allows the powder to pack together over time, due to vibration.
You can go to spray and much of the powder stays inside as a mass.
Definitely need to be inspected and recharged, regardless of regulations.

Ages ago Ansul came up with a design with a removable CO2 pressurizing cartridge with a tube that goes down to the bottom of the vessel with a spyder on the bottom.
Normally the main vessel is at atmospheric pressure.
Push the button and it punctures the cartridge, which then blasts CO2 into the vessel and simultaneously loosens the dry chemical and pressurizes the system.
They can sit in vehicles for ages and still work. All you need to check is the weight of the CO2 cartridge.

Unfortunately the regulations apply to all dry chemical units, even ones that will work after sitting for ages.


But.. most dry chemical units can pack hard with vibration and not work when needed.

Not sure about CO2 extinguisher regulations now.
Technically.. checking the weight is enough, but after enough years, they need to be replaced or inspected and pressure tested. (Just like propane tanks)

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Not sure about CO2 extinguisher regulations now.
Technically.. checking the weight is enough, but after enough years, they need to be replaced or inspected and pressure tested. (Just like propane tanks)

Hate to admit it but I became curious about re-certifying CO2 extinguishers. Transport Canada says :

Fire Extinguishers

tc.canada.ca

I thought I knew how to read, but apparently not. Every five years they require a hydro on :

(1) carbon dioxide extinguishers
(2) water extinguishers
(3) carbon dioxide and water extinguishers

None of the big names manufacture "carbon dioxide and water extinguishers" so I'll take that as a faux pas on their part.

I do have to go along for with a hydro after a specified period of time for CO2, propane, and other bottles as there is no way to determine what the exterior condition of the cylinder is, hence everybody gets tested.

My CO2 is in new condition so screw them (pardon my French).

 

[Leeward Rail]

Hate to admit it but I became curious about re-certifying CO2 extinguishers.

I do have to go along for with a hydro after a specified period of time for CO2, propane, and other bottles as there is no way to determine what the exterior condition of the cylinder is, hence everybody gets tested.

My CO2 is in new condition so screw them (pardon my French

Agreed.

5 years for CO2 pressure test ?
I would think the 12 year rule would be ok with CO2 with visual inspection. Wonder why they say 5 years.

 

[LloydB]

Follow the directions of the manufacturer of the life saving device. Otherwise it may as well be a rock. No matter how good your attorney and insurance is. IMO
btw- looks OK to me is not a visual inspection

 

[Leeward Rail]

Follow the directions of the manufacturer of the life saving device

That assumes they aren't ripping you off with excessively short inspection periods and inspection cost, in order to pad their bill. Industry bodies often do that.

If a CO2 extinguisher is still 100% full of its original volume of CO2 and isn't rusty in any way.. why would it suddenly not work?

CO2 doesn't cause corrosion.
Well... Valve seals, rubber hose etc. do fail due to age, UV etc.
That is the main reason for CO2 extinguisher inspections.
People have also known to partially use one, and not get it serviced. A big no no.


Not sure why they need a hydrostatic test at 5 years though

Keep in mind the Transport Canada (and like usa coast guard) regulations aren't "manufacturer directions"

I would look at the NFPA regs and recommendations. They are the people who use the tools and do the research.
(They are also working with industry companies who need to make money. I don't doubt that taints the regulations)

btw- looks OK to me is not a visual inspection

Visual inspection means exactly that. The quality of that inspection depends on the person's knowledge and effort.

Professional extinguisher inspection isn't an option in many cruising locations for those who actually go to other countries.

That said..In an era when people who buy sailboats can't tell if they have a diesel or gas inboard.... Or figure out why a pump isn't working.. they likely shouldn't use an extinguisher.. nevermind try inspect one.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

That said..In an era when people who buy sailboats can't tell if they have a diesel or gas inboard.... Or figure out why a pump isn't working.. likely shouldn't use an extinguisher.

Truer words were never spoken. You don't have to dig too deep into SBO postings to see examples of the above incompetence. Imagine all the characters who don't post because they don't even know what questions to ask.

 

[Leeward Rail]

For those interested, here is a link to National Fire Protection Association (USA Trade body)

Free access NFPA codes and standards

As part of its commitment to enhancing public safety, NFPA makes its codes and standards available online to the public for free.

www.nfpa.org

Here are some NFPA 10 pages related to inspection and hydrostatic test intervals.

 

[dLj]

Imagine all the characters who don't post because they don't even know what questions to ask.

This is actually very sad. I am a firm believer that the worst question is the one you don't ask....

When I do trainings, I send out a communication that everyone that is attending my training should send me in advance, just to me, questions they have. I use these for several purposes. One of them is to gain an understanding of the level of the people that are attending. Another is so that I can answer questions without the specific individual who asked it being embarrassed. This is particularly useful when I get question that demonstrate a significant misunderstanding...

dj

 

[LloydB]

I just know if asked, my attorney would write a letter to my insurance company after asking me when was your extinguisher tested and who did it. Even though I haven't done a recent price check I'm pretty sure that letter would cost me about four times what the a new extinguisher would cost( last year before the fire) planned obsolescence- scam or not.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

This is actually very sad. I am a firm believer that the worst question is the one you don't ask....

This is particularly useful when I get question that demonstrate a significant misunderstanding...

Would you care to to share some of your most misunderstanding student's questions and ideas ?

 

[dLj]

Would you care to to share some of your most misunderstanding student's questions and ideas ?

I'll have to think about if there are any that are particularly amusing... I can't think of any at the moment.

I think the one question that has come to me several times - the first time I got it I had a hard time to figure out how to clearly explain it - What is the difference between wrought and cast product since they both start as a liquid?

But I can't think of any really funny ones at the moment.

dj

 

[Leeward Rail]

I just know if asked, my attorney would write a letter to my insurance company after asking me when was your extinguisher tested and who did it.

The United States of Litigation.

$800 (or 10lb CO2 x 4 =$2000) for a single letter to the insurance company to show the $200/$500 CO2 extinguisher was either new or inspected, in the last 5 years ? Wow. I should have been a lawyer.

If it was inspected or new, all you would need to do is contact the company who did the work for a copy of the invoice.

If it wasn't inspected, no amount of letters or convincing from a lawyer, would make them magically professionally inspected.

Of course that question would only likely come about if they failed during use.

Can't see it much different as doing your own brake job or steering repair vs taking it to a mechanic. Except a bad brake or steering job can kill you and others.

In the case of a fire, the fire, and what caused it, is the cause of any loss. Not the tool you are using to try put out the fire.

Makes me wonder...
I shall have to ask my buddies who work in insurance and at the fire commission office. I am really curious.

If you don't attempt to use the extinguishers in the event of a fire on board, and just abandon ship.. can the insurance company refuse coverage ?

If the extinguisher doesn't do the job, could they refuse a claim because the user, who has never used one before, is incompetent at the task.

Do they allow you to use a blanket from the v-berth on a fire ? What if doing so, makes the fire worse ?

Having seen the safety standards for a lot of the world, I doubt they do extinguisher re-inspections to US standards worldwide.
What do you do if your boat hasn't been in the US for more than 5 years ?

Admittedly, some insurance companies will do anything to avoid payout. Rainmaker isn't likely far from the truth.

The ultimate question is:

Why would an insurance company care about fire extinguisher inspection on a private vessel, when
anyone in North America is allowed to buy a large boat, and use it, without training in seamanship, boat systems operation, function and maintenance ?

If they'll insure a boat owned by someone who has no clue about the engine in their boat, resulting in a fire burning it to the waterline...

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

So many questions, so little time.

 

[Leeward Rail]

So many questions, so little time.

Been a while since I looked into the regulations, but apparently the Canadian govt still feels that a single 5BC extinguisher is enough for a boat up to 30 feet, and a single 10BC for 30 to 40 feet.

Ugh. Waking up trapped in the v berth or unable to exit the companionway doesn't sound fun. Nor does going without a backup extinguisher.

For 40 to 79 feet they require:

1 10BC fire extinguisher at all of the following locations:

-at each access to any space where a fuel-burning cooking, heating or refrigerating appliance is fitted
-at the entrance to any accommodation space
-and at the entrance to the machinery space

1 axe
2 buckets of 10+ L each


No mention of C02 being considered acceptable for compliance on a private vessel

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Been a while since I looked into the regulations,

I simply cannot muster the interest in this arbitrary bull- to look up the requirements Seeing as how you enjoy this crap, do correct me if I'm wrong :

Don't all vessels require an ABC extinguisher ? This is my latest one(s) which is rechargeable :

Apparently a CO2 is not acceptable as a primary on any boat (except as a backup) as they are only rated as BC. They can't handle A fires because they require a wetting agent or a material which coats the combustibles.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Don't all vessels require an ABC extinguisher ?

Apparently a CO2 is not acceptable as a primary on any boat (except as a backup) as they are only rated as BC.

That was my understanding.


I shall post info direct from the source... Post above is from a 3rd party training company. I suspect wrong.. or I read the actual regs on the gov site wrong... Bad idea to start down the rabbit, like you said.. stay tuned.

 

[Tin Kicker]

ref. https://uscgboating.org/recreational-boaters/fire-extinguisher-faq.php26-40 ft requires 2 if built between 1953-2017

It states your
"One 10-B is not a substitute for two 5-B"
and
"a fire extinguisher rated as 10-B counts only as one 5-B"

 

[Davidasailor26]

ref. https://uscgboating.org/recreational-boaters/fire-extinguisher-faq.php26-40 ft requires 2 if built between 1953-2017

It states your
"One 10-B is not a substitute for two 5-B"
and
"a fire extinguisher rated as 10-B counts only as one 5-B"

Your link doesn’t work for me, but here’s one that does, for USCG requirements:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.federalregister.gov

 

[Leeward Rail]

26-40 ft requires 2 if built between 1953-2017

It states your
"One 10-B is not a substitute for two 5-B"
and
"a fire extinguisher rated as 10-B counts only as one 5-B"

Could be.. that is USCG regs. Not Canada.

 

[Tin Kicker]

Put this in Google:
change in uscg fire extinguisher requirements

Bottom line is that the requirements changed in 2022 and are different for pre-2018 boats versus newer.

And I missed that you're a Canadian - All good