Ferries

[Stu Jackson]

... and will continue to do so regardless of what the rules say. It seems to me, though, that most ferries here are operating in a traffic lane and are therefore the stand on vessel. This would include the Oakland-Alameda estuary and the route the ferries take from there to SF, as well as the Alcatraz ferry.

First, I don't understand "...regardless of what the rules say." The rules say get out of their way, you're doing the right thing, although it's simply unnecessary hereabouts. I think you may have it backwards.

Re traffic "zones", John, that's simply not true. The traffic lanes you describe are for the BIG ships, not the ferries, including the estuary. The BIG guys look at the ferries as small craft! The Vallejo ferry actually leaves the channel when it turns the corner in San Pablo Bay going north and east and stays well south of the deep water shipping channel. It is a coincidence that they follow them, because most of the Bay is a shipping channel (almost!). The Alcatraz ferry CROSSES the eastern shipping lane (i.e., south of Alcatraz) at 90 degrees! so it can't be "using it."

I've found the Alcatraz and harbor tour ferry skippers (who go under the Gate and turn around) among the most courteous, although I haven't found one who ever wasn't in 35 years sailing here. These two routes are right through the busiest racing venues of the Bay: tacking up the Cityfront. Those ferry guys are better at dodgin' racing sailboats than are most laid-back cruisers on sailboats!

The Vallejo ferry skippers are great since they're moving so quickly, but make their turns to make it obvious they'll pass you, and usually astern of you, too. They leave a dual wake: big rollers and short chop, which arrive at different times! Fun and games.

The Oakland ferry drops south of the shipping channel right at Est 8 (red) and uses A-B span, not D-E. Definitively out of the shipping channel.

Rather than continue to dodge them, John, I recommend you continue to be prudent, but start looking around and see how nice they really are. Then, when you go sailing somewhere else, forget everything you ever learned here!

 

[Ron20324]

First, don't understand "regardless of what the rules say." The rules say get out of their way, you're doing the right thing, although it's simply unnecessary hereabouts. I think you may have it backwards.

Stu, I believe YOU have it backwards. He said, " I change course to avoid them first and will continue to do so regardless of what the rules say." In otherwords, as is the smart way, he will do whatever it takes to avoid a collision regardless of who has the right of way.

 

[rtdbphoto]

I go with the rule of "tonnage" the boat with the most tons wins!

my 3 tons vs. a ferries 300... I move... regardless of stand-on/give way

 

[Ross]

I don't have ferries to dodge but there are 1800 ton gravel barges on the river and ships on the bay. My view from the deck of my 30 foot 6 knot boat is they are bigger and faster than I and the smartest thing I can do is see them early and get out of their way.

 

[John]

= shipping channel?

Re traffic "zones", John, that's simply not true. The traffic lanes you describe are for the BIG ships, not the ferries, including the estuary. The BIG guys look at the ferries as small craft!

Stu: I was referring to a "traffic lane" as referred to in rule 10, par.(j) and as I quoted previously on this thread. Are you saying that this is the same as a shipping channel?

thanks.

 

[hman]

Except for in racing, being the stand on boat doesn't really mean much when it's clear in the rules that avoiding a collision is required of both the stand on and the other craft. Unless there are mitigating curcumstances like no wind and no motor, you will be found negligent if it was in your power to do so and you don't avoid a collision with another boat of any size. Besides, SF bay with it's currents, water temp and sharks is NOT a good place to test the rules of the road! I've found when others are ignoring my "stand on" position in the bay it's a great time to practice a 360 or two....(my humble opinion)

 

[Honeyman]

Best to remember "right of way is GIVEN not TAKEN"...

 

[zeehag]

if one doesnt abide by rule 9 they will never get to rule 10......

post 9-11 many things changed. there are more restrictive rulings as re: small vs big, recreational vs commercial, cruise ships and merchant ships and military.

reality dictates--if is bigger than you
if it maneuvers slower than you---gtf out of its way. NOW.

 

[Maine Sail]

I was talking with another sailor who just took a sailing class. He said that they told him that a sailboat is the stand on boat vs. a ferry. I could swear I was told the opposite. This is assuming we're not talking about a ferry that is so large that it is not really maneuverable and must stay in the shipping channel. Who is right?

John,

Generally speaking that advise is correct but perhaps taught in a poor manner, if that is what was actually said.

Blanket statements and teachings of the COREGS can be quite inappropriate, IMHO. There are a number of situations which could make a sailboat not the stand on vessel. When you teach with blanket assumptions & statements people take them literally and the COLREG's are not an easy set of rules and there are lots of requests for interpretation even by seasoned tanker captains.

This is one reason the COLREGS have moved away from the term "right of way" except for one very specific situation on rivers. I appreciate your proper use of the terms as I agree with the Coast Guard that the term "right of way" can be dangerous to those marginally versed in the COLREGS as it tends to denote an absolute not a guideline for avoiding collision. Traffic, draft, maneuverability, sails down, overtaking etc. are just some situations that can impact stand on status of a sailboat over a ferry.

The first and foremost premise with the COLREGS is to avoid a collision. The rules are a guide as to how to do this but only work if both captains understand them. There are far to many caveats to the rules to make those sort of blanket statements, especially to those who don't have a good understanding of the COLREGS or who may not always be sailing in SF Bay's deep water.

 

[Stu Jackson]

. He said, " I change course to avoid them first and will continue to do so regardless of what the rules say." In otherwords, as is the smart way, he will do whatever it takes to avoid a collision regardless of who has the right of way.

Ron

The point was "regardless of what the rules say." The rules say TO dodge them, NOT to NOT dodge them.

He's dodging them. That IS the rule.

Clear enough?

 

[dscribner]

"Stand On" and "right of way" are not synonymous. (Darn, I wish this sight would spell-check!!!) In a collision, regardless of who was the stand-on vessel, you share the responsibility. If you have the ability to avoid a collision and don't . . . (Hypothical you, not preaching to John in any way) please replace the boat with a lawn chair and a pair of binoculars.

I was 3 miles out, close hauled on a port tack. A light breeze, 6 knots. What a day! Then this . . . boat, with huge inboards and three decks, had to be 60 feet long. Plows in front of us. We were in no danger, but 200 feet, three miles out????? That is just rude. The wake had to be 5 feet tall. Washed right over the bow of my 25 footer with tons of freeboard. I still gave way to head behind him. If ever there was a time to swear like a sailor, that was it.

Moral of the story: keep clear anyway.

 

[Maine Sail]

First, I don't understand "...regardless of what the rules say." The rules say get out of their way, you're doing the right thing, although it's simply unnecessary hereabouts. I think you may have it backwards.

Ron

The point was "regardless of what the rules say." The rules say TO dodge them, NOT to NOT dodge them.

He's dodging them. That IS the rule.

Clear enough?

Stu,


Actually, not quite clear..

Can you please cite/link for us the COLREG rule that gives a vessel under sail the give way position to a ferry, or that specifically gives the ferry stand on position when it is not encumbered by draft, maneuverability, traffic etc. over a vessel under sail? I remembered it to be that way but now can't find that rule.

You've stated twice now that the the sail boat is to "get out of the way" and is "TO dodge them" unless SF Bay has special circumstances that is not my understanding of the COLREGS and my interpretation of the rules does not line up with your interpretation..

Clearly I must be getting rusty....

 

[Stu Jackson]

Trusty, not rusty.

Perhaps I am completely wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time, but when I first started sailing here I considered the ferries no different than the big ships and kept out of their way, just like John is doing.

What I found, however, is because the ferry captains recognize that there are often sailboat races, they have courteous enough to doge the sailboats. They do so all of the time, not just most of the time, so I am comfortable by, first, always watching out for them anyway and, second, figuring out they'll doge us.

If it was only sometimes that they didn't dodge us, then I'd start dodging them because you never know...

That's all.

 

[Chuck Creel]

I have a simple solution, take a FREE boating course from power squadron or USCG AUX and learn the ROW rules of the road. Then use the TONNAGE rule, everyone will get along fine..

lol

 

[kenn]

It's clear that the situation vis ferries is unique to each harbour. We have ferries in Toronto Harbour, their routes are well-known, and their captains are experienced. I've found that they can deal with the traffic in our crowded harbour in a professional, courteous manner.

I'm much more concerned with... amateurs. It seems that about half the recreational powerboats I cross paths with are ignorant of the rules, and in particular they seem pathologically unable to pass/cross our stern rather than our bow. Even sailboats under power seem to have this affliction. Must be carbon monoxide, or ego, or something...

 

[Don12364]

In certain harbours on this side of the long pond the harbourmaster has powers to make local rules and to give directions. In one local harbour, where there are frequent collisions between the ferry and sailboats, including one case where an elderly lady was washed right under the 100' long ferry and came up the other side, the HM has made a local rule that "yachts will give way to the ferry".
This is confusing and very dangerous because no visitors from other countries will know this before they arrive so there is now a situation where both vessels feel they are the stand on vessel.
I told him he was just making the ferry driver's day in court easier.

 

[rardiH36]

I Did a Ferry Dance Today

Out on the open bay (San Francisco), I keep an eye on any nearby ferries, and the Red&White and Blue&Gold tourist boats, but I just keep my course and don't do something unexpected like make an abrupt direction change in front of them. The skippers of these boats are so used to sailboats they make the necessary adjustments to stay clear. But also I think often they like passing a good looking sailboat (like my totally generic 1980 Hunter) somewhat close, but not too much, in order to provide photo op's for the tourists when the Golden Gate Bridge or Alcatraz Island backdrops are good.

I am more careful however as I pass the ferry terminal in Sausalito, or the Angel Island ferry in the Raccoon Straight or when ferries are maneuvering near Fisherman's Wharf.

When a ferry is either leaving or arriving at a terminal it just makes sense to stay clear.

An example occurred today. I noticed a Golden Gate Transit Ferry about a mile way heading towards the Sausalito terminal. It looked to me that if I continued on my course (under sail), the ferry would need to slow down or stop until I passed. The wind was light so that could take a while. Many people would be inconvenienced. So I changed course in an obvious manner to let the ferry make its normal approach. Other times, the wind is too slight to even move out of a ferry's terminal approach course. So then its start the engine for a couple of minutes. Seems to make lots of sense to me.

 

[Steve Dion]

for the un-informed

http://www.dbw.ca.gov/Pubs/SFBay/SFBay.pdf

and for the informed too

http://www.baycrossings.org/dispnews.asp?id=2267

 

[Andy1237]

RAM (Restricted Ability to Maneuver) and CBDs (vessels constrained by draft) trumps Sail, and oh by the way if that fishing vessel has his lines out stay out of his way too! You have rights over that jetski!

 

[John]

Simplicity

You know, this would have been so very much simpler, and who knows how many trillions of electrons would have been saved in transmitting these electronic messages, if people had simply answered my question without making assumptions about the motive or anything else. If they weren't sure of the situation, they could have asked that. If they wanted to give an answer, and then provide a proviso or word of caution, they could have done that.

As for what I'm going to change from the new knowledge I've acquired - little if anything, except for this: It is also my understanding that the stand-on vessel is supposed to maintain course unless it appears that by doing so a collision will or might result. With the high speeds of ferries in the SF Bay, a sailor has to make a decision far in advance about whether a collision might occur. So I'll maintain my course except if it looks like we might be on a collision course while the ferry is quite a good distance from me... except around their docking terminals, in which case I'll do everything possible to stay out of their way. That's basically what I've been doing all along.