Ferries

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Apr 24, 2010
7
MacGregor Venture 21 Hillsborough
Re: Simplicity

I've never sailed in any crowded areas and i'm happy i've read this discussion. My personal rule is that either the other guy knows more than (almost always the case) i do so i yield (to their stern) or they're an inconsiderate ass in which case i yield to their stern b/c i dont want to crash. Its usually frustrating, esp. when you've got a good heel. I do whatever i can not to crash... but that doesnt stop me from giving them the finger and yelling a few choice words.
 

capejt

.
May 17, 2004
276
Hunter 33_77-83 New London, CT
not a ferry, but.....

While leisurely sailing down the Thames river from New London, CT I was about to be overtaken by a new Seawolf class submarine out of Groton. My father, who joining me for a day sail, asked who had the right of way? I looked back, saw the massive sub approaching and replied " the vessel carrying nuclear arms ALWAYS has right of way!"
Actually, it was indeed anouther case of "restricted by draft" vs. "vessel under sail".
He won, and I don't contest it!!
 
Apr 24, 2010
7
MacGregor Venture 21 Hillsborough
Re: not a ferry, but.....

Unfair! The seawolf's looking in 3D! lol. She should have had to go under you! But i guess draft problems and what not... i still thought it was kinda funny.
But that is an experience i'd like to have with my pops!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
You know, this would have been so very much simpler, and who knows how many trillions of electrons would have been saved in transmitting these electronic messages, if people had simply answered my question without making assumptions about the motive or anything else. If they weren't sure of the situation, they could have asked that. If they wanted to give an answer, and then provide a proviso or word of caution, they could have done that.
John,

The problem is that this is not always an easy answer. The rule that gives a ferry stand on is not in the rules section, which makes it very confusing, and is instead in the definitions sections under "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver"...

If one were to simply look at the definition of a "power vessel" a ferry fits. If you were to then read the rules it would appear that a ferry is not "stand on" over a sail boat.

Why would one look to "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" as that generally denotes draft, fishing gear barges etc. etc. They stick "people, cargo and provisions" under "vessel restricted" .... Like Stu I had remembered and was always taught that a ferry had stand on but then when this question came up I second guessed and went to the rules. I even looked up the definition of a "power vessel" but neglected to look at vessel restricted as SF is generally deep water...:doh:

See below.





OLREG Definitions:

For the purpose of these Rules and this Chapter [Inld], except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft [Intl], and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

(e) The term "seaplane" includes any aircraft designed to maneuver on the water.

(f) The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term [Int] "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall [Int] include but not be limited to:

* A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;

*A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;

*A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;

*
A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;

*A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;

*A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.


(h)The term "vessel constrained by her draft" means a power-driven vessel which because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following. [Int]
(i/h) The word "underway" means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.
(j/i) The words "length" and "breadth" of a vessel mean her length overall and greatest breadth.
(k/j)Vessels shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other.
(l/k) The term "restricted visibility" means any condition in which visibility is restricted by fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorms, sandstorms or any other similar causes.
(l) "Western Rivers" means the Mississippi River, its tributaries, South Pass, and Southwest Pass, to the navigational demarcation lines dividing the high seas from harbors, rivers and other inland waters of the United States, and the Port Allen-Morgan City Alternate Route, and that part of the Atchafalaya River above its junction with the Port Allen-Morgan City Alternate Route including the Old River and the Red River; [Inld]
(m) The term "Wing-In-Ground (WIG) craft" means a multimodal craft which, in its main operational mode, flies in close proximity to the surface by utilizing surface-effect action. [Intl]]
(m) "Great Lakes" means the Great Lakes and their connecting tribuatary waters including the Calumet River as far as the Thomas J. O'Brien Lock and Controlling Waters (between mile 326 and 327), the Chicago River as far as the east side of the Ashland Avenue Bridge (between mile 321 and 322), and the Saint Lawrence River as far east as the lower exit of Saint Lambert Lock; [Inld]
(n) "Secretary" means the Secretary of the department in which the Coast Guard is operating; [Inld]
(o) "Inland Waters" means the navigable waters of the United States shoreward of the navigational demarcation lines dividing the high seas from harbors, rivers and other inland waters of the United States and the waters of the Great Lakes on the United States side of the International Boundary; [Inld]
(p) "Inland Rules" or "Rules" mean the Inland Navigational Rules and the annexes thereto, which govern the conduct of vessels and specify the lights, shapes, and sound signals that apply on inland waters; and [Inld]
(q) "International Regulations" means the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions as Sea, 1972, including annexes currently in force for the United States. [Inld]



The section above that says: "A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway" is the exemption I was missing. I never go near ferries, and have always given them privileged position, so it did not stick out in my mind. You had to go to the definitions section to find it, not the rules..


Soooo I WAS a tad rusty and yes, the teacher was wrong. Hope this answers the question finally...


This is part of the problem I have with the COLREGS as they make them difficult to read and reference as this was not spelled out in the rules section but rather buried in the definitions..:doh:The all important thing is that we do our best to avoid collision.

I have a rule of my own that says I stay clear of any working vessel as I am out on recreation and they are making a living.

One very tricky question arises out of this though. Here in Maine they often use lobster boats, skiffs etc. to get "provisions" to & from the islands. How is one to know, by looking, that a boat is carrying "provisions"...??

So I'm carrying fresh fruit to deliver to an island store and other boats should know this?;)

They never define "provisions"......:D





 
Sep 29, 2008
1,936
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
Bottom Line

You always have the responsibility to avoid a collision. Most of the big boats and ferries (when they see you) have absolutely no interest in getting close to you, but they are also many times restricted in where they can go, so it is incumbent on you to stay out of their way.

Last year in the Geico Cup race off of Alexandria, VA on the Potomac River, we had a sailboat (I want to say it was in the low to mid 20's in length) in the race cut in front of one of the really big tour boats/ferries and it was all the boat captain could to with emergency reverse and all that to avoid running over that boat. That captain was pretty pissed and rightly so. On the upside, all of his tourists got a first hand view of a big sailing race (there were 20-30 boats on the river racing all within about a mile on that very narrow part of the river).
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Wasted Electrons

John,
We could have saved countless electrons in the thread if you would just listen to what experienced and in some cases professional people that are highly trained are telling you. You still have not adequately described the circumstances of your question and therefore there is no appropriate answer. Are you talking about a crossing situation? An overtaking situation. A head to head encounter? Is the sailboat under sail or power? Are both vessels under way at the time? Are both vessels manned or is one adrift? Is one anchored and waiting to be rescued by towing? Is one involved in a medical emergency requiring emergency response? Is the sailboat only 8 feet long with no power and the wind has completely died so the sailboat is not maneuverable? Define the situation and then maybe you will get a proper answer.
As far as determining if there is a chance of collision for vessels in a crossing situation there is a very simple way. Using a hand bearing compass sight on the vessel and see if the bearing to the vessel is changing over time. If the bearing is not changing then you have a risk of collision. If the bearing is changing how fast is it changing? One technique is to alter speed to change the conditions of the encounter. If you don't have a hand bearing compass use your primary compass by sighting along it, bulkhead mounted compasses make this hard to do. You can get a hand bearing compass very inexpensively, even a boy scout compass will work, and it is a great backup if you manage to smash your primary compass with a pipe wrench while trying to fix something in a huge sea.
Please do me a big favor. Keep sailing on the west coast and I will promise to keep sailing on the east coast. Thanks a bunch.
Dave :evil:
 
Sep 25, 2008
992
Oday 25 Gibraltar
You know, this would have been so very much simpler, and who knows how many trillions of electrons would have been saved in transmitting these electronic messages, if people had simply answered my question without making assumptions about the motive or anything else. If they weren't sure of the situation, they could have asked that. If they wanted to give an answer, and then provide a proviso or word of caution, they could have done that.

As for what I'm going to change from the new knowledge I've acquired - little if anything, except for this: It is also my understanding that the stand-on vessel is supposed to maintain course unless it appears that by doing so a collision will or might result. With the high speeds of ferries in the SF Bay, a sailor has to make a decision far in advance about whether a collision might occur. So I'll maintain my course except if it looks like we might be on a collision course while the ferry is quite a good distance from me... except around their docking terminals, in which case I'll do everything possible to stay out of their way. That's basically what I've been doing all along.
Relax. It's just the nature of forums. Sometime threads take on a life of their own. Sometimes you get your question answered sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get answers you don't like. It's about exchange of ideas. Sometimes people just have something to say. The human condition. You asked your question and you made your point. That's about all you can do.

Rich
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,507
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
Are the Ferries Showing the Lights or Signals of a Vessel Restricted in Ability to Maneuver

If not it is just another power driven vessel and is no further up the pecking order
 
Jun 11, 2004
1,734
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;

John,

The problem is that this is not always an easy answer. The rule that gives a ferry stand on is not in the rules section, which makes it very confusing, and is instead in the definitions sections under "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver"...

If one were to simply look at the definition of a "power vessel" a ferry fits. If you were to then read the rules it would appear that a ferry is not "stand on" over a sail boat.

Why would one look to "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" as that generally denotes draft, fishing gear barges etc. etc. They stick "people, cargo and provisions" under "vessel restricted" .... Like Stu I had remembered and was always taught that a ferry had stand on but then when this question came up I second guessed and went to the rules. I even looked up the definition of a "power vessel" but neglected to look at vessel restricted as SF is generally deep water...:doh:

See below.





OLREG Definitions:

For the purpose of these Rules and this Chapter [Inld], except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft [Intl], and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

(e) The term "seaplane" includes any aircraft designed to maneuver on the water.

(f) The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term [Int] "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall [Int] include but not be limited to:

* A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;

*A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;

*A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;

*A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;

*A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;

*A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.


(h)The term "vessel constrained by her draft" means a power-driven vessel which because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following. [Int]
(i/h) The word "underway" means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.
(j/i) The words "length" and "breadth" of a vessel mean her length overall and greatest breadth.
(k/j)Vessels shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other.
(l/k) The term "restricted visibility" means any condition in which visibility is restricted by fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorms, sandstorms or any other similar causes.
(l) "Western Rivers" means the Mississippi River, its tributaries, South Pass, and Southwest Pass, to the navigational demarcation lines dividing the high seas from harbors, rivers and other inland waters of the United States, and the Port Allen-Morgan City Alternate Route, and that part of the Atchafalaya River above its junction with the Port Allen-Morgan City Alternate Route including the Old River and the Red River; [Inld]
(m) The term "Wing-In-Ground (WIG) craft" means a multimodal craft which, in its main operational mode, flies in close proximity to the surface by utilizing surface-effect action. [Intl]]
(m) "Great Lakes" means the Great Lakes and their connecting tribuatary waters including the Calumet River as far as the Thomas J. O'Brien Lock and Controlling Waters (between mile 326 and 327), the Chicago River as far as the east side of the Ashland Avenue Bridge (between mile 321 and 322), and the Saint Lawrence River as far east as the lower exit of Saint Lambert Lock; [Inld]
(n) "Secretary" means the Secretary of the department in which the Coast Guard is operating; [Inld]
(o) "Inland Waters" means the navigable waters of the United States shoreward of the navigational demarcation lines dividing the high seas from harbors, rivers and other inland waters of the United States and the waters of the Great Lakes on the United States side of the International Boundary; [Inld]
(p) "Inland Rules" or "Rules" mean the Inland Navigational Rules and the annexes thereto, which govern the conduct of vessels and specify the lights, shapes, and sound signals that apply on inland waters; and [Inld]
(q) "International Regulations" means the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions as Sea, 1972, including annexes currently in force for the United States. [Inld]



The section above that says: "A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway" is the exemption I was missing. I never go near ferries, and have always given them privileged position, so it did not stick out in my mind. You had to go to the definitions section to find it, not the rules..


Soooo I WAS a tad rusty and yes, the teacher was wrong. Hope this answers the question finally...


This is part of the problem I have with the COLREGS as they make them difficult to read and reference as this was not spelled out in the rules section but rather buried in the definitions..:doh:The all important thing is that we do our best to avoid collision.

I have a rule of my own that says I stay clear of any working vessel as I am out on recreation and they are making a living.

One very tricky question arises out of this though. Here in Maine they often use lobster boats, skiffs etc. to get "provisions" to & from the islands. How is one to know, by looking, that a boat is carrying "provisions"...??

So I'm carrying fresh fruit to deliver to an island store and other boats should know this?;)

They never define "provisions"......:D





Maine Sail,

I would read "A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway" as a vessel actively engaged in the transfering process. For example, transfering persons, provisions or cargo between vessels, not just carrying persons, provisions or cargo. Otherwise every boat out there would be a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver wouldn't they?
 
Nov 23, 2009
15
None None N/A
John,
The section above that says: "A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway" is the exemption I was missing.
Maine -

This topic may be, like Monty Python's parrot, "bleeding demised", but I think that definition refers to what we used to call in the Navy "replenishment at sea", i.e., transferring people or cargo from one vessel to another while both are under way.

Bill
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
The ferry crossing is a few hundred yards from my marina. I am always going through there. I just went through yesterday and probably will today. The problem I have is, my boat is slow. I don't care who has the right to run in to the other boat. If I see a ferry strating to take off I stay out of the way, they are much faster than my boat.
They could be sitting there waiting on me to get in front of them, then ram into me at will.
In reality though, they are not looking to ram my sailboat. And they can clearly see me slowly making my way across. They can to some degree steer around me with out interfering in their business of getting cars and people from one side to the other. They are somewhat restricted but no totally restricted. I am more restricted in manuverability by my slow speed.
Yesterday one of the ferrys gave out one honk of their horn. I don't know if it was for me or not. One honl means sterr to port right? But that would have put me closer to the ferrys so I just stayed on the course I was on. So maybe it wasn't for me.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
The tug on the gravel barge will blow a long blast if there are boats that could get in the way. They don't much care which way you turn just as long as you stay clear. They are working and we are playing and Mamma taught me to not play in the street.
 

MrUnix

.
Mar 24, 2010
626
Hunter 23 Gainesville, FL
Having grown up on and around the water, I've always maintained the 'bigger boat wins' rule and give them plenty of space, regardless of who is 'right' under the regs.

:)

Cheers,
Brad
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Greatest Encounter

I witnessed a fantastic exhibition of the navigation rules while entering the Chesapeake Bay through the bridge tunnel southern channel. A carrier group started coming in behind me and the first ship was a destroyer. Now the new rules are to stay about 500 yards away so I turned my stern to the ship and since I had enough depth outside the channel I left the channel to put adequate distance between us. All of a sudden I hear five blasts on the horn and looking ahead see a power vessel on plane heading right down the channel for the destroyer. Another five blasts and no response from the power vessel. The next step was to man the fifty caliber on the bow and get ready to blast the power vessel out of the water. The captain got on a very loud speaker and ordered the power vessel to reduce speed and stay clear. All of a sudden the power boat slowed and got the message. We were a little disappointed we didn;t get to see a major engagement of our military forces.
So to sum up the story it is important to understand you responsibilities when acting as captain of a vessel, the consequences can turn quite deadly. I don't want to hear any of you were blasted by a fifty caliber.
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Yesterday one of the ferrys gave out one honk of their horn. I don't know if it was for me or not. One honl means sterr to port right? But that would have put me closer to the ferrys so I just stayed on the course I was on. So maybe it wasn't for me.
Bigger boats are usually required to give one blast of the horn as they leave dock... sort of a "hey - Im steamin here" announcement.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Maine -

This topic may be, like Monty Python's parrot, "bleeding demised", but I think that definition refers to what we used to call in the Navy "replenishment at sea", i.e., transferring people or cargo from one vessel to another while both are under way.

Bill
I thought it was weird...

So my original interpretation of the rules is still true. A sailboat under sail is still stand on over a ferry that is not encumbered by draft, etc. etc. etc....
 
Dec 2, 2003
1,637
Hunter 376 Warsash, England --
Ferry wot Ferry?

I just did a word search on the COLREGS. The word ferry does not exist.

Thus ferries have no special status unless a local harbourmaster issues a notice to that effect - and assuming he has the right to do so.
 

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Wow - such complicated "answers" to such a relatively simple question! I understand the OP's frustration in everyone giving advice and anecdotes when what he wants is the answer to a legal question. Also, when I read the question I assumed no "extenuating circumstances" (ie if someone asks "how much does a football weigh?" I assume he's not talking about on the moon, or in water, or at 9/10 the speed of light...)

Going by memory, a sailboat is indeed stand-on vessel to a ferry, unless the frerry is in a "traffic lane" (not sure this is the exact wording...). So the question is: is a ferry route that is marked on a chart considered a "traffic lane"? I think it is, so if the ferry is IN the ferry route, it is stand-on vessel.

Make sense?
druid

EDIT: ps - the ferries up here are at least as big as freighters, and travel faster.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,992
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
So my original interpretation of the rules is still true. A sailboat under sail is still stand on over a ferry that is not encumbered by draft, etc. etc. etc....
Which, interestingly enough, is pretty much what our experiences here have been as noted earlier. John is dodging for no reason. The traffic lanes here on the Bay are for the ships, not the ferries.

John, we're just here to keep this thread going and try to set the record for the number of pages. :dance:

Only longer one so far was the Hunter Beneteau Catalina Which Is Best topic recently! :eek:

Now, if we could only get the racing sailboats to recognize the stand on concept... OK, OK, before you start in on me on this one, I've cruised and then raced and when cruising I always got out of their way. But there was a day...
 
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