I was talking with another sailor who just took a sailing class. He said that they told him that a sailboat is the stand on boat vs. a ferry. I could swear I was told the opposite. This is assuming we're not talking about a ferry that is so large that it is not really maneuverable and must stay in the shipping channel. Who is right?
Ferries
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I'd point out that regardless of what the rules of the road say, most ferries are not going to change course or slow down for a small recreational sailboat. Most are going to be draft limited to some degree as well. Just because you have right of way doesn't mean you will win... you may end up being DEAD RIGHT. Stay out of their way whenever possible, as much as possible.
I find this question disturbing
Also the responses.
Whether a boat is a stand on vessel or a give way vessel depends entirely on the circumstances and the type of boat. You can never get a one sentence answer to a question like this. For instance, let's say you are a sailboat in the ICW with a 6 foot draft in a section with a MLW of say 7 feet and a ferry is coming up the channel behind you?
Or let's say the sailboat is a vessel "not under command" displaying a red over red masthead light?
The context of the situation must always be taken into consideration and there is not enough information provided in the posters question to answer it. As SD noted it is best to completely avoid the situation when possible, otherwise you are taking a risk and then at the mercy of probabilities. Like what is the probability that the captain of the crossing powerboat has a captain's license and actually knows what he is doing? Or what is the probability the captain of the ferry has relinquished control of the vessel in order to go sneak a shot of whiskey in his cabin? Look at the ferry accident in New York and then tell me how much risk you want to take with probabilities?
Also the responses.
Whether a boat is a stand on vessel or a give way vessel depends entirely on the circumstances and the type of boat. You can never get a one sentence answer to a question like this. For instance, let's say you are a sailboat in the ICW with a 6 foot draft in a section with a MLW of say 7 feet and a ferry is coming up the channel behind you?
Or let's say the sailboat is a vessel "not under command" displaying a red over red masthead light?
The context of the situation must always be taken into consideration and there is not enough information provided in the posters question to answer it. As SD noted it is best to completely avoid the situation when possible, otherwise you are taking a risk and then at the mercy of probabilities. Like what is the probability that the captain of the crossing powerboat has a captain's license and actually knows what he is doing? Or what is the probability the captain of the ferry has relinquished control of the vessel in order to go sneak a shot of whiskey in his cabin? Look at the ferry accident in New York and then tell me how much risk you want to take with probabilities?
I would not challenge a ferry for right of way; that wasn't my point. I just wanted to know the rule on the issue. The specific situation I'm referring to is the SF Bay - a wide open space with fast-moving ferries that in general are not severely limited by the depth and could easily maneuver around me. I have always behaved as if they are the stand on boat, and will continue to do so. In fact, there have been quite a few instances where I have maneuvered around a sail boat where they were the give-way boat, but I didn't want to take a risk of collision or forcing them to make a sudden and unexpected course change. I'm just curious what the rules say.
John
the rules may allow one action, but the operation, schedule, SIZE, etc.....will allow the ferries to do just about what ever they want.
As Dog says, you may dead right, but it is not a game of who wins, as much as it is one of I am small, easily manuverable, shallower draft, etc...let me get well away from this erratic beast.
In some parts of the country, if you linger too long near a big boat, the authorities are going to show you the way...and they REALLY don't care about the rules..you simply do what they say and go where they want you.
Best bet, stay well away or use your radio, it is up to all capts to do what is prudent to avoid each other....right or wrong, rules or not...really doesn't enter it in the real world.
the rules may allow one action, but the operation, schedule, SIZE, etc.....will allow the ferries to do just about what ever they want.
As Dog says, you may dead right, but it is not a game of who wins, as much as it is one of I am small, easily manuverable, shallower draft, etc...let me get well away from this erratic beast.
In some parts of the country, if you linger too long near a big boat, the authorities are going to show you the way...and they REALLY don't care about the rules..you simply do what they say and go where they want you.
Best bet, stay well away or use your radio, it is up to all capts to do what is prudent to avoid each other....right or wrong, rules or not...really doesn't enter it in the real world.
Note to Jibes
Incidentally, I think that you and the previous responders are assuming too much. What is wrong with asking a simple question on the rules of the road? Why is the question "disturbing"? Why do you assume that somebody would try to enforce their technical rights in that way? I've been in situations where a kayaker was actually overtaking me. I was the stand-on boat then. Do you think I'd turn and run them down because of that?
OK maybe its' not that "disturbing" but too many boaters go out on the water, especially kayakers, jet skis, etc. without any basic knowledge of the law or the requirements to operate a vessel. I am also concerned too many "classes" teach simple concepts to really complicated scenarios. Things like "a sailboat has the right of way" has no place in any kind of professional teaching in a classroom setting. This concept must be taught in the context of the situation. Whomever taught the class your friend took did not clearly explain the concept, or your friend didn't comprehend what was being taught. Either way you have an accident waiting to happen. Go to this website and download these rules and study them until you understand them thoroughly.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm
I disagree
My question still stands. So, if anybody has an answer to my question - not what they think stands behind the question - but to what the question actually is, based on the situation I described (SF Bay), I'd appreciate their replies. Thanks in advance.
I still think Jibes is making assumptions. And in any case, the very fact that the Coast Guard has made these rules contradicts what he writes. Why do we even bother learning which is the stand-on boat in which situation then? Everybody should know what the rules are. This doesn't mean we insist on our "right" at all times - no more than I would insist on my "right to free speech" when faced with a gun-wielding madman.
My question still stands. So, if anybody has an answer to my question - not what they think stands behind the question - but to what the question actually is, based on the situation I described (SF Bay), I'd appreciate their replies. Thanks in advance.
By rule the sailboat has the right of way, if there are no other factors (narrow channel, inability to maneuver, constrained, etc. - a cable ferry - which would be inability to maneuver). Unfortunately, insisting on it may terminate your sailing career rather quickly. Human nature being what it is accepts a rule as gospel, while the intent of that rule, in most cases, was slightly different. Some of these rules were created to address a very real need during the time when huge sailing vessels had to vie with the new power vessel technology. As the operator of a sailing pleasure craft, if I can, I usually yield the right of way to everyone, especially if the vessel is commercially operated. As an interesting aside, it seems that whenever a mishap which involves the rules occurs, the CG and/or courts usually find both parties at fault. My feeling is that being armed with that sobering knowledge changes, in my mind, the interpretation of the rules and therefore it behooves that pleasure craft operator to yield. This seems to be the most practical application of the law and one which has my and my vessel's interest/safety at heart. I'm sure the purists will disagree.
I think the answer is “COURTESY” ! I believe that one should be courteous (of course not to the exclusion of safety) to the commercial vessel since it costs real money to slow one or change course.. It basically does not cost a recreational Captn’ to slow or change course to AVOID a stand on situation long before it happens (if he in fact is paying attention). Think semi making a wide right turn on a street.. You may have the right of way but he is trying to complete a business transaction.. Its a good idea to stay way back from semis and not block them on interstate highways as well since that is their livelihood.. Please treat the professionals who pilot the commercial vessels with the same courtesy..
My opinion is that all people should have to do a three year apprenticeship on a motorcycle only, before being allowed to drive a car or boat.. That gives a person a little better understanding of when to stand on and when not to.. Consequences are immediate..
My opinion is that all people should have to do a three year apprenticeship on a motorcycle only, before being allowed to drive a car or boat.. That gives a person a little better understanding of when to stand on and when not to.. Consequences are immediate..
I didn't find anything in the Coast Guard link on courtesy (or consideration of others), although I try to observe it at all times - both on and off the water. To the best of my knowledge, that's not something that can be legislated. The closest I could come to finding an answer to my actual question was in Rule 10 (and, yes, they do have rules - not just general courtesy suggestions). Section (j) states: A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
So, my next question is what is considered a "traffic lane"? For instance, is the normal course followed by the SF to Tiburon ferry considered to be a "traffic lane"? I looked in the definitions section of that link, but it didn't define that term there. (Again, just to avoid any confusion: I always give way to ferries and will continue to do so, no matter what the answer is. I am simply seeking some technical information.)
So, my next question is what is considered a "traffic lane"? For instance, is the normal course followed by the SF to Tiburon ferry considered to be a "traffic lane"? I looked in the definitions section of that link, but it didn't define that term there. (Again, just to avoid any confusion: I always give way to ferries and will continue to do so, no matter what the answer is. I am simply seeking some technical information.)
When sailing in the open area of the SF bay, you are going to have a problem moving out of the way of a ferry going 40 mph and overtaking your sailboat.
My experience is that these ferry captains give most boats a wide berth. They typically are moving outside the shipping channels are always looking out for everyones safety.
My experience is that these ferry captains give most boats a wide berth. They typically are moving outside the shipping channels are always looking out for everyones safety.
The rules only matter in court. Avoiding court is always the best option. Also, keep in mind that the CG regs or Colregs aren't always the last word. They don't necessarily apply on inland waters. Everyone has a responsibility to avoid collisions. I typically make an exaggerated move in one direction to indicate clearly my intent if approaching head on. It does get a little more interesting if someone catches me about to tack, but that is a rare occurrence. Usually I end up tacking perhaps in advance of when I wished to, but I am just out there having fun and it is not a bother to do so.
Other sailors can be as much trouble as others. I had my furler jam coming into the channel and some idiots from the club next door set up a dinghy race course across the 30 foot wide channel! Zipper heads. I had to reverse course to get into open water to fix the jam and ended up passing through a fleet of a half dozen race boats twice...once on the way in and once on the way out.
Other sailors can be as much trouble as others. I had my furler jam coming into the channel and some idiots from the club next door set up a dinghy race course across the 30 foot wide channel! Zipper heads. I had to reverse course to get into open water to fix the jam and ended up passing through a fleet of a half dozen race boats twice...once on the way in and once on the way out.
Assumptions?
I can't see where I am making any. Your first scenario and your second scenario (SF bay wide open water) still don't provide enough information to answer your question. Let's say you are a small sailboat in San Francisco Bay and you are rapidly approaching a large ferry boat from astern. Then the sailboat is the give way vessel. It completely matters what kind of vessel it is, what the condition of the vessel, whether it is under power or not, direction each vessel is heading, etc. Let's say the ferry boat was chartered by the California Legislature to hold a party after they successfuly passed a new spending bill to further bankrupt the state. The Ferry is stopped dead with no power and displaying a day shape so the legislators can do some bottom fishing. Your sailboat is under power but with a sail up (motorsailing). Now who is the give way vessel?
I can't see where I am making any. Your first scenario and your second scenario (SF bay wide open water) still don't provide enough information to answer your question. Let's say you are a small sailboat in San Francisco Bay and you are rapidly approaching a large ferry boat from astern. Then the sailboat is the give way vessel. It completely matters what kind of vessel it is, what the condition of the vessel, whether it is under power or not, direction each vessel is heading, etc. Let's say the ferry boat was chartered by the California Legislature to hold a party after they successfuly passed a new spending bill to further bankrupt the state. The Ferry is stopped dead with no power and displaying a day shape so the legislators can do some bottom fishing. Your sailboat is under power but with a sail up (motorsailing). Now who is the give way vessel?
OK, I have to step back, John.. I was assuming that you were conversant with the rules and that you were asking a question about rule application.. Basically if a ferry route is marked, you are not stand on.. The high speed ferry route marked in SF bay is an example.. The traffic lane to the east of Tiburon is another example of a traffic lane.. (regulated navigation area 165.1181) Looks like Racoon straight is marked as a recreational area so technically you’d be stand on if applicable there.. The rules are clear but there are gray edges, the most notable is the part about avoiding collision, as Bob observed.. That is in the rules. I have memories of a boat in a race on Mobile Bay who tacked about three paint coats away from a barge tow that was under way in a traffic lane, the ship channel. Yes he avoided a collision but in his effort to gain position in a race, he'd caused the tow to begin to slow and to begin turning to a course which would have put him aground .. The tow was stand on.. and the tow captain knew he was.
John, it is different out here on SF Bay
The discussions are quite clear, and generally ferries are the stand on vessels. It's ONLY here on SF Bay (as far as I know) where the ferry captains recognize the limited maneuverability of sailboats and the many races that take place. They almost always get out of OUR way, including the powerful and swift catamaran Vallejo ferries.
I also am quite sure that the rest of the respondents are not aware of the almost unique situation we have here on The Bay.
I would NOT mess with ferries in any other venue - they are ships, we are boats.
The discussions are quite clear, and generally ferries are the stand on vessels. It's ONLY here on SF Bay (as far as I know) where the ferry captains recognize the limited maneuverability of sailboats and the many races that take place. They almost always get out of OUR way, including the powerful and swift catamaran Vallejo ferries.
I also am quite sure that the rest of the respondents are not aware of the almost unique situation we have here on The Bay.
I would NOT mess with ferries in any other venue - they are ships, we are boats.
Thanks, Stu and Kloudie. You answered my question, although usually I don't give a ferry captain the chance to maneuver around me as I change course to avoid them first and will continue to do so regardless of what the rules say. It seems to me, though, that most ferries here are operating in a traffic lane and are therefore the stand on vessel. This would include the Oakland-Alameda estuary and the route the ferries take from there to SF, as well as the Alcatraz ferry.
I sail with ferries all of the time up here in the Sound. They will usually avoid you if they can, especially if overtaking. If there's a problem, I'm on the radio on their channel and communicating. I had an engine die in windless conditions at 2AM one night which left me in their channel. A simple radio call took care of the problem. A spotlight on your sails in advance helps at night too.
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