Etiquette Question

[smokey73]

Warning - long post

I did not get the impression that this was an "off shore race" nor did I see any info from the OP on the size and age of the boat. This is not a "near shore" jaunt up the coast so there are a lot of legitimate questions like those suggested by others and a "opt out" if when you arrive at the boat you feel uncomfortable with the boat condition or crew. The owner should (I would hope) have the necessary experience for such a trip and would have confidence that his rigging, safety equipment, etc was up to task for the voyage for his safety too! I've found in similar situations that wording of the question has a lot to do with the response and how it is percieved - thus resulting in hard feelings or outright hostility. I don't know how the question was asked or what words were actually used. If it was by an email or text then that is the first problem and possibly a major contributor to the issue. Emails and texts can't convey context or the tone that is evident in a face to face or even a telephone conversation. There are alot of nuances that can be detected with the human voice and body language if you are perceptive. The specific questions about safety equipment noted by JiminPB show you know what your talking about. The question about a schedule that has to be met is very important along with "are we going to be in company with other similar boats?" "Gotagetthere" syndrome is a major contributor to private airplane crashes (flying into bad weather) and I am sure for long off shore passages.

As far as the ORC inspection. If I recall right the ORC rules mandate that safety lines be uncoated stainless steel. How many of you, even with big boats you have that right now? Would you necessarily replace them for this trip or would you carefully inspect them? How many of you, with an otherwise well kept boat, with the right safety equipment and an experienced owner/captain refuse to crew on a trip to Bermuda on a 2009 Moody 46 that has coated safety lines? Would I want the "opt out" capability if I got down there and there were safety issues with the boat or the provisioning did not support what could happen out there? What if the other crew members were "newbe's" and there was a serious lack of experience to handle the unexpected? If I were the owner, I'd expect you to be this cautious and would respect your questions. In fact, I'd be concerned if you just said "H#%$ yes I'l go." I'd also want you to come down and visit the boat and do a day sail with maybe the whole potential crew to make sure everyone was as they represented themselves. Also, that would mitigate the possibility that someone might "bail out" at the last minute. Nothing can substitute for personal face-to-face communications. I imagine this is "what we have here is a failure to communicate" (ala Cool Hand Luke). So, if you really want to go then see if you can smooth things over and re-establish a communication channel with the owner.

I did a similar voyage (from Bermuda to Rhode Island) many years ago and it was a real treat. It was on a 38 foot Chrysler sailboat with an Atomic 4 and only the Captain and I doing the sailing, no other boat in company, with only a Magnetic Compass, charts, Sextant shots on the sun, and a Radio Direction Finder and VHF radio for electronics. We did hail merchants when we saw them to get a real fix. I was young and dumb but I never regretted the experience although now I wouldn't do that voyage under those conditions now nor would I ever recommend anyone do that.

 

[jwing]

When I sell things on Craigslist, I always include enough photos/information for knowledgeable (aka: serious) potential buyers to determine if my price is fair and whether it is worth their time to come see the thing in person. Nonetheless, I get inundated with with demands for all sorts of minutiae and high-magnification photographs that have nothing to do with the functionality of the object for sale. I ignore those demands; those people do not get a chance to buy what I have, nor do they get a chance to waste my time. Maybe that's what the skipper in this story was experiencing. From my perspective, his response was understandable, but poorly worded. I'm OK with poorly worded; the OP should go to the boat and do his own inspection.

 

[enorfleet]

Thanks for the replies, gang. I should have used the word “survey” instead instead of “inspection”. And yes, the owner stated that the boat had been surveyed last year. I asked for a copy of the report. Seems like basic due diligence to me.

 

[dlochner]

Thanks for the replies, gang. I should have used the word “survey” instead instead of “inspection”. And yes, the owner stated that the boat had been surveyed last year. I asked for a copy of the report. Seems like basic due diligence to me.

Sometimes, as has been pointed out, it is all in the wording. If the owner had volunteered that the boat had been recently surveyed, it might have been better to ask about the findings, any deficiencies noted, and the current status of those deficiencies. Rather than ask for a copy, it might have been better to ask to take a look or review the survey.

 

[shemandr]

I applied for a crew position for a re-location of a boat from south to New England. The captain sent a questionnaire that was pretty detailed including medications, health issues, experience, age , and a good deal more. I did not make the cut - for several reasons including schedule and experience. I had no problem with the way it was handled. He was just trying to get the right people. If I got into it deeper, I don't think it would have been inappropriate for me to subject the captain and vessel to as close scrutiny. I am short on off shore experience but in the primary delivery I was involved in, the engine needed to be shut down every couple of hours to add oil. Worse yet the starter had a flat spot which meant the engine was difficult to re-start. We drifted many miles off New Jersey with no wind and unable to start the engine for hours. I may have gone on the delivery anyway in those days because I was hungry for the experience. Others have told me many stories of deliveries of boats with serious mechanical and structural problems that weren't known to exist before they left. The more experienced delivery guys I know don't do boats they don't know anymore for long trips. They have all had bad experiences.

 

[agprice22]

Thanks for the replies, gang. I should have used the word “survey” instead instead of “inspection”. And yes, the owner stated that the boat had been surveyed last year. I asked for a copy of the report. Seems like basic due diligence to me.

Well answered.

 

[dLj]

I can't really comment on the question/response as I don't have the entire communication.

However, from my perspective, if I were the captain, I would never have answered as presented. I would either have been polite and suggest an alternative to come inspect the boat yourself, or if I thought I didn't like your "tone" I'd have either said you aren't going to work out or just dropped all conversation with you and written you off.

If I was in your position, I would have to reflect if I wanted to invest any more energy into this. If I thought I wanted to, I'd apologize for any misunderstanding and would it be possible to come look at the boat before committing. But much more likely I would simply drop it as a possibility.

Being on a boat for any length of time is close quartered living where communication and enjoying the entire experience is my number one concern. That includes all safety related issues as well as interpersonal communication. Starting off on the wrong foot would be a deal breaker for me.

But, I've sailed a lot, don't have any burning desire to have anything more than completely positive sailing experiences. Just my 2 cents worth .

dj

 

[capta]

As a professional delivery skipper with literally hundreds of deliveries under my belt, I doubt that any request of that nature would get you a place aboard any vessel I was delivering. I also doubt I'd bother to find an old survery and send it to a complete stranger. It's a lot quicker and easier to find another crew.
Primadonnas in the delivery business end up telling sea stories of other peoples' adventures to their grandkids, in their old age.

 

[SG]

Recently, I was invited to crew on a passage from Virginia to Bermuda. The skipper was a stranger, and the invitation came as a result of my having signed up at one of the online forums that connects skippers with crews. The timing was good for me, and I have been dreaming of such a passage for years. I informed the skipper that I was good to go, subject to some due diligence. I requested an opportunity to meet him and see the boat, some referrals from former crew members and a copy of the most recent inspection of the boat. The skipper was accommodating on the first two requests, but replied that showing me the inspection report was “totally inappropriate.” Seems to me before committing to a risky adventure with a complete stranger on an unknown vessel, one is wise to learn all one can about both the stranger and the vessel. Was I out of line? Or was he trying to hide something?

I am not surprised by the skipper's response. If your general questions about the boat lead you to have a concern about it, the other crew, and skipper, then don't go. If the visit to the boat by a expert like yourself lead you to determine there was an issue, don't go.

The skipper doesn't need you enough to take that request seriously, or not be insulted.

Enorfleet, you asked the question, so (in response), you either are more experienced, precinct, and smarter than the skipper -- or you just proved to him he doesn't need that crap.

I suggest, that if you want to go n a ride as a part of a crew, don't do that again. (take that from someone that who has done similar things earlier in life ;^))). Form your own opinion, decide to go, or don't -- you don't need to say why, if you pass early enough. If the skipper took that question from you and didn't react, don't go out on the ocean with him -he's not someone that you should expect to be your Captain (My Captain). ;^))).

I've had different groups of people that have gone up to Maine over 8, or so trips. I have used OPO to help find crew. The passage is less than 700 nm, usually outside Nantucket (unless there's bad, or no winds). I try to take a minimum of three people with me. At least one who really knows a bunch, maybe one who's ready to learn but knows how to sail, and someone who's pretty good, but not "there yet".

I expect questions about their boat, the equipment, the crew, me, etc.

I give people the benefit of "doubt" when the might ask: "when did you last have the 8 man life raft inspected? ". I wouldn't be offended. If someone then followed it up with: "who inspected it?" Before, I might respond,"Vane Brothers. Do you you know them?", I would wonder if I want to sail with this person? In that moment, he or she had better be ready to say, "I know them, they are the go-to experts and expensive", or something that changes my bullshit meter's fluttering.

I've noticed crew that do what I might do when looking over the boat: Ask where the fire extinguishers are and casually eyeball the pressure status. Or, ask where the EPIRB is and look at the battery status casually as well as check the NOAA sticker for the date. There are ten or twenty things that someone that "knows" will do, without being obnoxious. It's those things that demonstrate they are the real thing. They do that to satisfy themselves, not prove who they are. The best ones are concerned with the sails, how the boat is rigged, etc. They will ask questions about the integration of Nav systems works, how the jack lines are rigged, what the watch schedules that I prefer are, etc., etc.

Anyway, I offer these observations because if you want to go on one of these passages, you'll need to adjust what you ask, get comfortable enough, suspend your fear (as long as you do so rationally), and pick the right boat and group to go with.

 

[nightowle]

I will be doing the Baja Ha Ha this fall. I know both the skipper and the boat. In this case, I don't think your request is out of line whatsoever. If he didn't have any such report, that's all he had to say. The fact that he said it was inappropriate raises a big red flag for me. I think you were prudent to ask for a report as many owners do have something fairly recent, whether a purchase or insurance survey. Again, if he didn't have anything - so be it. No need to 'dis' you.

Other answers here assume or suggest that the skipper is a delivery captain. Nowhere does the OP indicate that. I would be more trusting of a professional delivery captain. But here, you have every right to ask some detailed questions. It's only your darn life we're talking about.

 

[jssailem]

I was invited to crew on a passage from Virginia to Bermuda.

When I read your message subject and your intro to the question, I was uncomfortable with the premise and wording. As I understand you placed your “I Want to be a crew on a boat” request and the information you provided was determined to be acceptable to the captain.

Then you wanted more information to decide if the Captain and the Boat was acceptable to you.

Are you asking was your behavior within the norm of crew (assuming this would be a free trip for you in exchange for your work) proper?

It appears that right up to the point when you questionsed the captains integrity and decision to take his boat on the trip, yes. Your question about inspection crossed a line. Likely it was how it was stated or received. I suspect your query about the inspection was to help put your mind at ease that some knowledgeable 3 party authority had approved the boat. An inspection would make it all ok. I can also see how a captain with pride in his boats seaworthiness for the upcoming trip might think.. “Who does this little s%^t think he is challenging my knowledge of my boat and the trip. What is going to be next? If I have him on the 2AM watch and I’ve rigged the alarm to wake me if a ship is going to pass within 2 miles is he going to turn it off because he thinks it’s no big deal. “ I sense that he is exercising Captain’s ettiquite to say that inspection is none of your business. Get off my boat.

As stated by @SG very correctly, a smart crew member can assess a boats seaworthiness and the compatibility of the crew without embarrassing himself or the Captain.

Commercial charters where money is paid for passage are required to be inspected.

A captain who is concerned about his boat and insures it would have to meet the requirements of the insurance company (i.e. boat inspection/survey) before the insurance would be issued for an ocean passage. A better question for the future might be to ask if the boat insurance is covering this passage and the crew.

Or if you are not sure perhaps paying for a commercial passage would be a better match.

 

[Kings Gambit]

From the several tales I've read, the trip from Virginia, or New York, to Bermuda is potentially quite a bit more of a crossing than an ocean jaunt of a few days. I would likely ask different questions; namely, would this be the first time for the skipper in his boat, and/or have there been similar past crossings as skipper? It appears so considering he was seemingly willing to provide testimonials from former crew. The second might be to inquire how long he has been sailing the boat and whether or not he is the actual owner of it. If there are doubts and the boat is documented, you can search the Vessel Documentation data base for ownership history and other details. Relatively recent owner w/no crossing experience--beg off . Experienced owner w/crossing experience on that route, inquire further. When will we be going, why that particular time, what would I need to bring, and does he use a weather service? Ask these questions in a "chatty" way. You're trying to "extract" information in a casual manner. IMHO, you do not want to be part of some kind of time-scheduled crossing at a marginal time of the season w/ a skipper who appears to know little of weather forecasting or sees little need of it. I also think it would be fair to ask what type of insurance policy the boat carries; i.e., is the boat insured for the route? Some policies have limits on where a boat can be sailed, etc.

As for the "inspection report", a cold-turkey request for one probably would put me off b/c as others have said, one likely does not exist; although, his answer suggested that one might and you later clarified that there was a recent survey. (This could suggest recent purchase; recent ownership.) It may to him qualify as one of those "dumb questions" that many folks claim do not even exist. But as to why the skipper responded the request is "inappropriate", I have no good clue. Perhaps it's his euphemism for "dumb question." "How many more of these can I expect?" might be going through his mind.

 

[capta]

A better question for the future might be to ask if the boat insurance is covering this passage and the crew.

This brings up a very important point that I'm sure many in the boating world are unfamiliar with. Americans and insurance. Interestingly enough, this elephant even popped her head up when I was having minor surgery here in Trinidad.
Some twenty fives years ago, jobs for Americans on boats with Mediterranean owners started drying up. Even through systems that had supported my career for many years, there seemed to be fewer and fewer jobs available.
Finally, when one of my most prolific job suppliers failed to put me up for a vessel I really wanted and was eminently qualified for, I confronted him. "Americans are too litigious." was his short, simple answer. The world had learned we were a bad bet.
In 2011, sitting in Bermuda the reality of this hit me right in the face when we met up with the 250 foot expedition yacht Lone Ranger. Wholy American owned and yet not one single member of her 25 person crew was American.
From my early days of being a highly sought after captain BECAUSE I was an American to this brave new world where even American owners did want to take a chance on us.
So, a word of caution to those wishing to make a career at sea, don't spend a great deal of time and money earning credentials that will allow you to operate foreign flag vessels, as there may not be a job for you in the end.

 

[Kings Gambit]

But as to why the skipper responded the request is "inappropriate", I have no good clue.

Now thinking more about surveys. Neither of the two surveys of my boats, or others that I've read on prospective purchases, have said much if anything at all about the seaworthiness of the vessel. Probably the HIGH majority are seaworthy from a hull-integrity point of view. So what's the beef? Some, maybe all, of them contain assessments of the value of the vessel. Now that's a bit confidential to many folks as it might open a "window" on one's net worth. I suppose the owner could leave that out and show the rest of the survey; but, who wants to share any of it with a "starry-eyed" stranger looking for adventure ("I have been dreaming of such a passage for years.")? Not I!! So, regarding the OP's Etiquette query--I suppose it could be an "inappropriate" breach of etiquette to ask to see it.

 

[capta]

But here, you have every right to ask some detailed questions. It's only your darn life we're talking about.

In this case, I definitely think that before a face to face meeting, requesting a piece of paper that may exist (but is not commonly so) is way beyond the norm.
It says that this crew member would rather decide from some piece of paper whether to even accept an interview than meet the captain face to face and see the boat in person. Talk about a RED flag!
Quite frankly, I could probably have my secretary produce an acceptable boat condition letter in just a few minutes on the computer, so where is it's value after that?

 

[Ron20324]

I recall a magazine story about a rescue at sea. A loung lady bummed a ride from the Caribbean to the U.S. somewhere. The boat had no radio, no survival raft, but maybe a dinghy, and IIRC, not a number of other things. They swammped the boat in a storm, jumped in the water or the dingy. The skipper died, the lady was rescued. The rescuers removed her PFD to treat her and saw her tee shirt that said, "I survived the Devil's Triangle".

 

[Will Gilmore]

Some, maybe all, of them contain assessments of the value of the vessel. Now that's a bit confidential to many folks as it might open a "window" on one's net worth.

That is probably the crux of the matter right there. I've only ever seen a couple of survey documents, so I don't know, but the listing data may be part of the document. I don't think questions are necessarily out of bounds, but expecting them to be answered may be.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[agprice22]

I do not think any survey can attest to the seaworthiness of a vessel, but it may note defects or items that detract from seaworthiness, as in the note about the addition of a deckhouse effecting the CoG of the Albatross... I would think surveys detail defects and problems, not speculate on handling or character of the nominal vessel. That would be a long document that details seaworthiness of the nominal vessel! Also, speculation opens a whole, new can of worms (who ever canned worms?) in terms of litigation in terms of insurance or even defamation of a manufacturer or boat yard.

 

[agprice22]

I think the question is what information can a rookie crew expect or should request. As far as any bias against Americans: Is there insurance against event loss for the particular task? If so, captains or owners could require this to indemnify themselves.

 

[jssailem]

I do not think any survey can attest to the seaworthiness of a vessel

I would agree. The OP used the words:

a copy of the most recent inspection of the boat

He is asking for an "Inspection" not a "survey". As I understand an inspection is done by the USCG for boats engaged in for hire services. This could imply that the OP was going to pay something for the trip.