ethanol/ stable/ sea foam

[Rick Webb]

Lycoming and Continental Engines Were Designed that Way

Tecumseh and Briggs & Stratton engines were not. They may run forever on 101LL but their head temps are already high and I am not sure I'd use it in one then again I have no trouble finding straight gas either.

 

[MrUnix]

Tecumseh and Briggs & Stratton engines were not. They may run forever on 101LL but their head temps are already high and I am not sure I'd use it in one then again I have no trouble finding straight gas either.

I've got an old Sears lawnmower with a Briggs engine that I bought sometime around 1995. I use the cheapest 87 octane gas I can find, and it has ethanol in it (up to 10%) around here and has for years. I can go out right now and it will fire on the first pull and run strong until I shut it off. As far as I can tell, the ethanol has not made a single bit of difference in it's performance. Other than the usual maintenance (plugs/filters), I always run it dry at the end of the season so it doesn't sit all winter with gas in the tank. All my 2-cycle stuff is the same (weed-eater, chainsaw, etc..) including the three small outboards I have.

Actually, I think my old British-Seagull runs a bit better with ethanol mixed gas, and it dates back to somewhere in the late 70's to early 80's...

Cheers,
Brad

 

[chuckwayne]

Re: Interesting results

MS,
I've been using Seafoam for 2 years now with fantastic results in my 3.5 and 5 hp mercs. When I switched to ethanol gas in the 5hp 4 stroke I had to install a new carb, lines and filters but it's run flawlessly with the seafoam added since

 

[Waddie]

ethanol

It is correct that some engines are more effected by ethanol than others. Sometimes it's the general humidity level in that area, sometimes other things.

As for some of the other things, here goes;

The mandate for 10% ethanol in gas is a MINIMUM requirement. The ethanol is added as per the customer's specs. An honest gas station will order 10% ethanol but there is nothing to stop them from ordering 20%. Since the alcohol costs less than the gas there is a great temptation. It is not uncommon for gas to test out higher than 10%.

Also, as the gas sits in the stations tanks, especially if they aren't kept topped up pretty well, water can leak into the gas as alcohol attracts water. That's why I use a tester (small baby food jar and a few drops tells the story) every time I buy gas.

Vehicles built after about 2000 and some small engines use gasket and seal material that is more resistant to alcohol stiffening that older models. But there are several different grades and types of these materials (usually color coded) that can resist decay. I prefer Viton tubing for gas lines. It's black and lasts quite a few years in my experience. You can buy it through Grainger online.

The new mandate for 15% ethanol has been approved by the EPA but that percentage wasn't tested on cars older than 2006 and not on small engines at all. So who knows how it will go. The ethanol producers would like to see, and are lobbying for, 20% ethanol. (Remember, that's a minimum).

Power and octane ratings are not the same thing. Octane has more effect on antiknock than anything else. Higher octane is really necessary for cars that run higher manifold temps (in order to run cleaner).

Ethanol increases octane ratings but has less energy (power) per gallon than gas. It is about 27% lower. So if you mix ethanol in with the gas you can use a lower grade of gas to begin with and still get the higher octane rating at the pump.

But if you are using straight gas you must use a higher (more powerful) grade of gas to get the higher octane at the pump.

That's why people who run straight gas (at the same octane as someone else running 10% ethanol gas) will get about 4 mpg better fuel mileage.

So two identical vehicles - one on straight gas - and one on 10% ethenol - the straight gas vehicle will get about 4mpg better mileage.

Since around here straight gas and ethanol are only slightly different in price, and my Toyota's require 91 octane, I buy straight gas.

regards,
Waddie

 

[John Nantz]

Waddie - VERY interesting post!

Frankly, I never really got into finding out what ethanol laced gas does to my engines. Initially, when it was so new, there were a lot of arguments for and against it I decided just to wait it out and let the dust settle.

Now, time has gone by and I still haven't delved into the issues. I've just been pulling up to the pump at my favorite gas station and filling 'er up. After reading your post, though, I'm going to start looking into it.

A couple thoughts come to mind, though. So, this refinery got some oil and cranked out some gas that was a little low on the octane side. No problem, just add some ethanol and bingo! We're back in business. After all, I'd hazard to guess that most people buying gas just look at the octane rating and the price. What else is there to know, eh?

10% ethanol - Minimum? Never paid any attention to that before but will do now for sure.

Less energy per gallon with ethanol? Well, that's kinda like LPG vs CNG. The two aren't the same. We're supposed to be buying "energy" and the energy is supposed to have a certain octane but instead we're buying "gallons" with a certain octane.

Somehow mortgage loans come to mind in all this. The ethanol people are happy because they're selling a lot and the politicians are happy because they got the contributions for their campaigns. The refiners are probably happy because they can get by with an additive to sweeten any product they have, and gas stations are happy because they can buy cheaper gas. In the end it's looking more and more like we, the consumer, are again the stuckees.

Bottom line: fewer miles per gallon, engine problems and repairs, and on the environmental side, probably the worst part of all, more acreage of deforestation going to farming.

 

[Rick Webb]

The Economics of Ethonal are Just Stupid

A gallon of ethanol cost more and requires more energy to produce than does a gallon of gas. You get less energy out of a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gas. It costs more to transport a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gas; they cannot transport it through pipelines it must be trucked to the distribution location. These additional costs are reflected in increased prices at the pump.

On the corn side the increased demand has raised the price of my tortillas and raised the price of feed corn so my steaks are also costing more.

Anecdotally here is my experience. My wife started a new job 72 miles away we bought a Ford Focus for her to drive back and forth instead of her Lincoln Town Car. Pre ethanol gas he got 44-45 mpg and could make three round trips after all the stations here switched to ethanolised gas she got 38-39 mpg and could only make 2 1/2 trips. During the transition some tanks we could get ethanol free gas and saw the differences tank to tank so it was not an issue with the car. I took on the maintaince of the coach boats for the youth sailing program at our yacht club before the transition to atonal gas we had always bought gas around the corner at the local gas station. When we started using the ethanol gas we started seeing carburetor problems right away made no difference what we added Stabil, Startron, SeaFoam whatever. We also had issues with hoses and seals on filters and such. We started using only ethanol free gas from the marina and have not had any issues since.

Anyone who runs for office and supports doing away with the subsidies and incentives for ethanol they'd have my support. Let's let the market sort it out. If someone wants to pay more for getting less let them but give the rest of us a choice. If it reduced our dependence on foreign oil there might be an argument to continue but adding it to our gas reduces how far the gas will go by a similar amount so there is no reduction in gas imports at all.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

I skipped from page 1 to 3 so maybe this has been posted...

http://pure-gas.org/


fwiw, any gas over 6 months old is junk and I don't use it... except to start fires or kill weeds.

-ymmv.

 

[Winkfish]

While I think it is too soon to draw a full conclusion I am going to try it in my brothers Honda that is suffering from the same disease. If it fixes his I am sold. His has been surging and stalling for over two years and has never had the carb replaced.

So far I have to say that I am impressed with what SeaFoam did to my mower though I did use it in a very strong dose..

I must have hit the wrong button this morning. My post didn't "post." Anyway, Mine Sail, I have a 90 hp Merc, 1985, on my fishing boat I bought in 2006. I used SeaFoam, strong dose, to de-carb the engine, which immediately improved it's performance. After that, I use a (strong) maintenance dose religiously. I think it's a great product, and my engine seems to agree.