ethanol/ stable/ sea foam
- Thread starter Chuck Creel
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Exactly. Practical Sailor also ran some tests that reached that conclusion. Great marketing though.
The real trick is to keep the tank FULL (refill when you return to the dock, not when you leave) so that there is no breathing. Also close small tank vents (some can leak water during driving rain). Then you should have no more trouble that a car. And go sailing as often as possible!
Some additional links:
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2010/11/al-gore-and-ethanol-so-now-its-not-good.html
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2010/04/epa-memo-on-e-10-and-phase-separation.html
Rad, I trust that you mean aviation gasoline and not
jet fuel. Turbine engine fuel will not work in a gasoline engine. You can get aviation gasoline at any airport. It is high octane and will of course cost considerably more. Off road vehicle shops usually carry gasoline without ethanol and racing fuels that will work.
jet fuel. Turbine engine fuel will not work in a gasoline engine. You can get aviation gasoline at any airport. It is high octane and will of course cost considerably more. Off road vehicle shops usually carry gasoline without ethanol and racing fuels that will work.
I hate e-10 gasoline. I like old motorcycles, here in Michigan I used to be able to get 'pure' gas, but it cost almost 50% more than 'normal' gas. Always used it for my last tank of the season because of the problems e10 gave me in the spring. Even with my normal winter storage tricks I had to tear down and rebuild the carbs every spring if I didn't use real gasoline.
You can pull the alcohol out by putting some water in the can of gasoline, then after letting it sit overnight draw the water/alcohol from the bottom and using the alcohol free gas. I have a fuel pump with the pickup tube wired to a dowel so I can pump the water into another container.
Prior to storage, I mix some two-stroke up (25:1) with 'cleaned' gas and run that for a while before final shutdown. On bikes, I put it in then ride maybe a mile, then shut off the tank and run the carbs empty. It blows a little smoke on first fire-up, but clears out soon. Since the switch to e10, the only change I've made is to clean the gas first.
It may not be worthwhile to everyone, but for me, with the work saved in the spring it's worth it. Two of my bikes runs amazingly better on the 'cleaned' fuel, running smoother with more pep, much better mileage, and run a LOT cooler. (I could easily spend 4-5 hours per bike getting the carbs ready for spring. (quad carbs, remove/tear down/clean/reassemble/reinstall/tune/balance)
You can pull the alcohol out by putting some water in the can of gasoline, then after letting it sit overnight draw the water/alcohol from the bottom and using the alcohol free gas. I have a fuel pump with the pickup tube wired to a dowel so I can pump the water into another container.
Prior to storage, I mix some two-stroke up (25:1) with 'cleaned' gas and run that for a while before final shutdown. On bikes, I put it in then ride maybe a mile, then shut off the tank and run the carbs empty. It blows a little smoke on first fire-up, but clears out soon. Since the switch to e10, the only change I've made is to clean the gas first.
It may not be worthwhile to everyone, but for me, with the work saved in the spring it's worth it. Two of my bikes runs amazingly better on the 'cleaned' fuel, running smoother with more pep, much better mileage, and run a LOT cooler. (I could easily spend 4-5 hours per bike getting the carbs ready for spring. (quad carbs, remove/tear down/clean/reassemble/reinstall/tune/balance)
So let me get this strait, by putting water in the gas it precipitates the alcohol out. Do you shake the tank up real good to make sure it is mixed, well it's not really going to mix, so I'm not sure how effective it will be, the water will go strait to the bottom of the tank.
Run it dry
The only thing I have found that works is running the carb dry. On some makes, this does not work, because it leaves some fuel. If you get the float bowl totally empty, there is nothing left to gum up the works. If I had an outboard that wouldn't get the float bowl empty when run dry, I would rig some kind of a drain. For what it's worth, I run my Suzuki 2 stroke dry every time I start it, and use sta-bil. Never keep ethanol more than thirty days. Never have a problem.
The only thing I have found that works is running the carb dry. On some makes, this does not work, because it leaves some fuel. If you get the float bowl totally empty, there is nothing left to gum up the works. If I had an outboard that wouldn't get the float bowl empty when run dry, I would rig some kind of a drain. For what it's worth, I run my Suzuki 2 stroke dry every time I start it, and use sta-bil. Never keep ethanol more than thirty days. Never have a problem.
Never heard this before. So I went a-googling... found a bunch of interesting stuff:http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/669605551/m/307102133
- this link mentions the water trick. It also suggests that high ethanol content can cause 2-stroke oil to separate out.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/removing-ethanol-gasoline-12697.html
- more info on trying to wash ethanol out. Some infoon the fact that gas with ethanol is conductive, meaning it can facilitate galvanic corrosion, and it can eat aluminum if in higher proportion than E10.
http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/environmental/E20_Position_Paper.doc
- here's the National Marine Manufacturers' Association's take on E20
http://www.fueltestkit.com/remove_water_gas.html
- what to to with contaminated E10 gas. Also mentions a test kit for water in gas (which is apparently their product)
- info from Evinrude
http://www.evinrude-parts.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html
- and finally, Mercury Marine's position on ethanol:
http://www.ejmertaughboatworks.com/ethanol.pdf
My takeaway:
- "cleaning" old E10 gas is feasible, but it also reduces octane, so you'd need to add it back somehow.
- no way am I switching our perfectly-running 1983 Suzuki 5 HP to E10 gas. I'm staying with premium 0%-ethanol gas and Nautilus 2-stroke oil
I do love the internet
+1 on North Carolina.
I'm on the way north (to Maine). Filled up on ethanol free gas in NC for the dinghy which is widely available at marinas. Bought two extra jerry jugs. Hopefully this will be enough dinghy gas for the whole summer.
Maybe next year I'll pick up even more and sell it for $10 a gallon in New England.
Carl
I'm on the way north (to Maine). Filled up on ethanol free gas in NC for the dinghy which is widely available at marinas. Bought two extra jerry jugs. Hopefully this will be enough dinghy gas for the whole summer.
Maybe next year I'll pick up even more and sell it for $10 a gallon in New England.
Carl
At the other end of this spectrum is a 4 cycle gas powered generator that I built an enclosure for 8 years ago. At that time I filled the tank with highway gasoline and started it ran it for an hour to power my power saw and shut it down . This march the home owner asked me to make sure that it will still start and run, he hasn't had need for it yet. I sprayed some starter fluid on the air cleaner and pulled the starter cord and she fired up and ran. I have started it once a week since then and it always starts on the first pull. This is on 8 year old gas.
I have checked with marina's selling Valvtec fuel in New England and it all had ethanol. I'm not sure about New York but my understanding (and experience) is that North Carolina is the first state heading south where ethanol free gas may legally be sold (except aviation fuel which is ethanol free everywhere). This is, of course, why fuel related outboard problems are so much less severe among folks in Florida. They have no idea of the frustration :cry:
I have survived fairly well with ethanol fuel using four steps:
-- Dump gas every 30 days into a car
-- Use an ethanol treatment (I use Phase Guard 4 from CRC but I'm not sure it's better)
-- Cut the hose and install a permanently mounted, good size external fuel filter/water separator.
-- If leaving the outboard for more than a week, disconnect the hose and run out the gas. If more than a month, take off the cover and drain the carburetor (this is actually easy on Honda's)
Carl
I have survived fairly well with ethanol fuel using four steps:
-- Dump gas every 30 days into a car
-- Use an ethanol treatment (I use Phase Guard 4 from CRC but I'm not sure it's better)
-- Cut the hose and install a permanently mounted, good size external fuel filter/water separator.
-- If leaving the outboard for more than a week, disconnect the hose and run out the gas. If more than a month, take off the cover and drain the carburetor (this is actually easy on Honda's)
Carl
If you know a drag racer or have a track in your area you can probably buy enough race fuel from them for a season. It's spendy but 105+ octain and you'll be able to plain all the way home. The cost used to be around $6 a gallon.
Ray
Ray
Ethanol and Gummed up carburetors
Both my 2003 Mercury 15hp 4-stroke and my 2010 Nissan 8hp 4-stroke carburetors would get clogged idle passages and jets in the carburetors from fuel with Ethanol. I was using Startron additive, but it did not prevent the problem with Ethanol fuel. I use the motors once or twice per month.
It is deceptively humid here, at least 80% almost all year, and the Ethanol fuel is too hygroscopic. It draws the moisture out of the air pretty quickly. I even had small white crusty patches in the bottom of the float bowl, which means there was water in there.
Now, I only use Chevron Premium (only 91 octane, around here) and Stabil. Chevron is the only non-Ethanol fuel that I can find around here. Outboards now start up reliably. No more clogged idle passages.
I also keep the fuel system full. I do not run the motor "dry", to keep moisture/condensation out.
I bought the Ethanol Test Kit from http://www.fuel-testers.com to help in my search for ethanol-free fuel. It is simple and works well.
Both my 2003 Mercury 15hp 4-stroke and my 2010 Nissan 8hp 4-stroke carburetors would get clogged idle passages and jets in the carburetors from fuel with Ethanol. I was using Startron additive, but it did not prevent the problem with Ethanol fuel. I use the motors once or twice per month.
It is deceptively humid here, at least 80% almost all year, and the Ethanol fuel is too hygroscopic. It draws the moisture out of the air pretty quickly. I even had small white crusty patches in the bottom of the float bowl, which means there was water in there.
Now, I only use Chevron Premium (only 91 octane, around here) and Stabil. Chevron is the only non-Ethanol fuel that I can find around here. Outboards now start up reliably. No more clogged idle passages.
I also keep the fuel system full. I do not run the motor "dry", to keep moisture/condensation out.
I bought the Ethanol Test Kit from http://www.fuel-testers.com to help in my search for ethanol-free fuel. It is simple and works well.
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Really ? I've owned and operated airplanes and read aviation magazines for decades and never run across any information about 100LL avgas "burning hot". Higher octane means the gas air mix can be compressed more without exploding. 100LL contains tetraethyl lead to boost the octane rating. It doesn't change the energy content of the gasoline. Can you supply a published source to confirm your information or an explanation for the allegation that it damages engines ?
Interesting results
OK this is the back story.
In approx 2000 I bought a Honda HRX lawn mower. The machine is wonderful and ran flawlessly until ethanol showed up in our fuel. It ran batter than any other piece of yard equipment I have ever owned. For over 7 years I did nothing but shut it off in the fall and fire it up in the spring. Within a month or two of us getting ethanol in Maine the mower started surging and stalling. It would always start back up but would again surge and die. Playing the throttle could get me through a complete mow, but it was obnoxious.
Last year I replaced the carb and all gaskets. This was not a rebuild, cleaning or re-built carb but a BRAND NEW carb. It ran great for about three weeks then began doing just as the old one did.
I tried Stabil, Marine Stabil, Startron, Techron and other potions and NOTHING changed. This spring it got so bad again that I bought another carb and replaced it a second time. Each time I replaced the carb I would drain the tank, clean it and completely blow out the lines and start with BRAND NEW gas. Like clock work it began surging in about three to four weeks.
A couple of weeks ago a guy who works at the Honda dealer told me to put some Sea Foam in it. I was of course skeptical but picked some up at Wal*Mart. Within a couple minutes of putting WAY more than I needed to, directly into the Honda tank, the motor was running better, smoother and at a higher sustainable RPM than I have managed in over three years. Tonight I finished my second mowing with the Sea Foam and the mower once again ran flawlessly with absolutely no surging or stalling.
While I think it is too soon to draw a full conclusion I am going to try it in my brothers Honda that is suffering from the same disease. If it fixes his I am sold. His has been surging and stalling for over two years and has never had the carb replaced.
So far I have to say that I am impressed with what SeaFoam did to my mower though I did use it in a very strong dose..
OK this is the back story.
In approx 2000 I bought a Honda HRX lawn mower. The machine is wonderful and ran flawlessly until ethanol showed up in our fuel. It ran batter than any other piece of yard equipment I have ever owned. For over 7 years I did nothing but shut it off in the fall and fire it up in the spring. Within a month or two of us getting ethanol in Maine the mower started surging and stalling. It would always start back up but would again surge and die. Playing the throttle could get me through a complete mow, but it was obnoxious.
Last year I replaced the carb and all gaskets. This was not a rebuild, cleaning or re-built carb but a BRAND NEW carb. It ran great for about three weeks then began doing just as the old one did.
I tried Stabil, Marine Stabil, Startron, Techron and other potions and NOTHING changed. This spring it got so bad again that I bought another carb and replaced it a second time. Each time I replaced the carb I would drain the tank, clean it and completely blow out the lines and start with BRAND NEW gas. Like clock work it began surging in about three to four weeks.
A couple of weeks ago a guy who works at the Honda dealer told me to put some Sea Foam in it. I was of course skeptical but picked some up at Wal*Mart. Within a couple minutes of putting WAY more than I needed to, directly into the Honda tank, the motor was running better, smoother and at a higher sustainable RPM than I have managed in over three years. Tonight I finished my second mowing with the Sea Foam and the mower once again ran flawlessly with absolutely no surging or stalling.
While I think it is too soon to draw a full conclusion I am going to try it in my brothers Honda that is suffering from the same disease. If it fixes his I am sold. His has been surging and stalling for over two years and has never had the carb replaced.
So far I have to say that I am impressed with what SeaFoam did to my mower though I did use it in a very strong dose..
Burning Hot
A higher octane fuel tends to burn more than explode. That is why if you burn a fuel with a lower octane rating than what is suggested in a motor it will knock. The knock is all those little explosions when the spark plugs fires.
The potential issue with using 101LL is the valve timing in an engine designed to run on 87 octane fuel the gas is still burning when the exhaust valve opens. I have run 101 and even 130 in cars with no deleterious effects. Not sure about an air cooled lawnmower but would not hesitate in any 2 cycle engine. For an outboard I'd think that we way we use them on sailboats mostly for short periods of time and not at a continuous high RPM it would not be an issue.
If you are really concerned perhaps mixing the 101LL with 87 pump gas half and half would bring the octane and the ethonal levels down to acceptable levels.
A higher octane fuel tends to burn more than explode. That is why if you burn a fuel with a lower octane rating than what is suggested in a motor it will knock. The knock is all those little explosions when the spark plugs fires.
The potential issue with using 101LL is the valve timing in an engine designed to run on 87 octane fuel the gas is still burning when the exhaust valve opens. I have run 101 and even 130 in cars with no deleterious effects. Not sure about an air cooled lawnmower but would not hesitate in any 2 cycle engine. For an outboard I'd think that we way we use them on sailboats mostly for short periods of time and not at a continuous high RPM it would not be an issue.
If you are really concerned perhaps mixing the 101LL with 87 pump gas half and half would bring the octane and the ethonal levels down to acceptable levels.
Back in May when this post started I called a friend who's a pilot and is pretty knowledgeable about all kinds of engines so when he told me it seemed to make sense and I didn't what to find out the hard way and after reading Rick's post it makes even more sense .
I've used lots of Sea Foam all summer in a generator and the Nissan dink motor and so far so good
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