Epoxy isn't adhering in some areas

[Don Crowther]

Hello
I find myself needing some advice again from the Forum. I've attached a picture of the project I'm working on.

As you can see the epoxy that I'm trying to put on my new floor isn't adhering in some areas.
Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong. I stained the floor then VARATHANE
Diamond Wood Finish - ext.(Water, Satin) two coats.
Did I do this backwards? Should I have put the epoxy on first?
Any ideas?
Thanks
Don

 

[Chief RA]

Re: epoxy

Don: Just drawing from my experience but as soon as I read epoxy over varathane: I thought a finish over a finish? If I use epoxy for a protective coat that is all I apply . Maybe now sand the finish so epoxy adheres properly? Chief

 

[Don Crowther]

I see the picture that I tried to attach didn't for some reason. I'll try again.
Also the reason I'm doing this is because I read somewhere that straight epoxy breaks down when exposed to uv's.

 

[woodster]

Re: epoxy

i think you should have used a oil based stain not water based if i remember correctly Ralph Johnstone used this combination on his steps ...you may want to look up companionway steps and see if you can find what he described

 

[Chief RA]

Re: epoxy

Don: My plastics reference indicates that you need to contact the manufacturer for UV specs. since there are so many kinds of epoxy. Chief

 

[Don Crowther]

Re: epoxy

I've only done a test patch that won't be seen so if it doesn't work no worries.
Both the stain and varathane were water based.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

epoxy

As you can see the epoxy that I'm trying to put on my new floor isn't adhering in some areas.
Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong. I stained the floor then VARATHANE
Diamond Wood Finish - ext.(Water, Satin) two coats.

Hi Don,

I don't see in your procedure where the epoxy is mentioned.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but yes, I'm afraid you may have done this in the reverse of what it should have been done. My procedure in the past (according to the book) has been to use a thin coat ( using lacquer thinner) of epoxy to saturate the wood surface, then several coats of epoxy for mechanical strength, and finally three coats of varnish to protect the epoxy from UV. You'll find it all in the attached manual from System Three which is a excellent instructional. Their cartoons are also good for a laugh.

Chief has mentioned that there are many epoxies on the market and the number is growing daily (if not hourly). Check on line for you epoxy's manual. Seems like everybody, West System and others publish large instructional manuals on their products for PR. They may have a solution to you problem in there.

One final thing to remember when using epoxy is that it's 100% impervious to moisture penetration. Therefore, ensure that all work is absolutely hermetically sealed to avoid moisture penetration at all points front and back. IF water should get in, it's going to pressurize as it tries to find an escape route and will lift a lot of surrounding epoxy in the process.

Read about it first hand in the System Three manual.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

epoxy

I've only done a test patch that won't be seen so if it doesn't work no worries.
Both the stain and varathane were water based.

Colour me biased, but I really don't have much faith in these water based varnishes. I would check to see that they do offer UV protection for the epoxy.

Do I understand that your observed lack of adhesion is only based on a patch test so far ? Great news :dance: as I'd hate to think of trying to redo the whole floor if need be. As previously mentioned, there are loads of manufacturer's epoxy manuals out there which will take you from the boring depths of epoxy chemistry to some amazing tricks like flaming the wet epoxy (using a torch) to produce a mirror like, bubble free surface.

 

[Don Crowther]

 

[Chief RA]

Re: epoxy

Ralph: Great point about the water not being able to get out! We're always worried about it getting in! From your info it immediately comes to mind that if using water base, then epoxy: no telling how long it would need to expel all the moisture! I think there are UV inhibitors you can add to the epoxy.

Don: So sorry as that is beautiful work except for that finish. Do you think fine block sanding will clean it up for another finish coat? I can't think of anything else, plus, you could go to the Varathane for the finish coat now if you wanted to.
Chief

 

[Apex]

Re: epoxy

I have been working on refinishing as well, prepping for crib boards.

Epoxy, then epiphanies varnish. Found it is essential to wipe the amine blush off prior to varnish: Amine blush (waxy bloom) comes to the surface. West Systems recommends a warm water wipe. It did make a difference in avoiding fish eyes, or small varnish "exclusions?"

 

[Don Crowther]

Re: epoxy

Chief, Ralph, Woody;

It looks like I will have to abandon my epoxy finish and continue with the varathane.
By the way I was using West System epoxy as it's the only one I could find in town. And that was from Lee Valley.
Thanks again

 

[woodster]

Chief, Ralph, Woody;

It looks like I will have to abandon my epoxy finish and continue with the varathane.
By the way I was using West System epoxy as it's the only one I could find in town. And that was from Lee Valley.
Thanks again

they make a #207 hardener for doing what you are trying to do google west systems manuals and you will find it good luck

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Interesting .........................

Found it is essential to wipe the amine blush off prior to varnish: Amine blush (waxy bloom) comes to the surface. "

....................... that West produces an amine blush. System Three's "claim to fame" is that they don't produce a blush. Really makes no difference to me as I always thoroughly sand with about #180 to ensure a good bond between the varnish and epoxy.

This still remains IMHO the ultimate way to finish wood both interior and exterior as long as you can get a 100% hermetic seal on the wood.

 

[mitiempo]

Sanding doesn't remove blush. Washing does.

 

[Maine Sail]

Colour me biased, but I really don't have much faith in these water based varnishes. I would check to see that they do offer UV protection for the epoxy.

Water based floor finishes SUCK!!! As long as I can get oil it is all I will use on our boat.

My wife has spilled perhaps multiple bottles wroth of red wine in our kitchen, which is Varathane Oil Poly over red oak, not so much as any evidence of a permanent stain. Nothing has penetrated the OIL finish in 15+ years. I did my old office in water based poly and spilled one drop of red wine, did not notice it for a few hours, and it had already PENETRATED the finish and permanently stained the floor......:cussing:

And yes epoxy first then finish... Think of the epoxy as your barrier coat. Also don't forget the bottom and sides!!! Sealing the bottom and cut sides, is very, very important if you don't want the finish to fail....

 

[cagreen75]

Had the same problem with epoxy not sticking. Solved it by wiping the wood with a throughly saturated actetone rag to remove surface oils.

 

[Brian S]

Ok, original poster says he stained the wood, then applied water-based varithane, and THEN applied West System epoxy. This is not the correct order to apply the finishes.

First step would be to stain. I would check with West System (they have extensive information on their site) to make sure that either oil or water based stain (OP did not specify) is compatible with the epoxy.

Then, apply 2 coats of epoxy. You MUST let this cure for at least a week, to allow for full cure and production of any amine blush, whether there is supposed to be blush or not.

Clean with soapy water to remove any amine blush. Blush will prevent many finishes from drying or curing.

Then, he can finish with an appropriate UV protectant varnish. This will protect the epoxy from turning yellow from UV. As MaineSail has pointed out, I wouldn't trust water-based varnish. I would go with a respected name in marine varnish, whether it's Interlux, Pettit, Epifanes, maybe Total Boat... Besides, real marine varnish will provide that rich, amber color. Any water-based "varnish" I have seen goes on milky colored, and dries to a clear finish with no amber color. Even down on the cabin sole, I'd probably still use traditional UV varnish, because you could have sun shining through the companionway.

I might also use ground walnut shell mixed in with the final coat, or next-to-last coat of varnish for non-skid. Another option is to sprinkle granular sugar or salt onto a wet coat of varnish, then wash and dissolve off the sugar or salt to leave a non-skid finish in the varnish itself.

 

[mm2347]

Read then follow the products (that you are using) directions. There is just too much inaccurate info. given by misinformed but well intended. For example: read West Systems tests on saturating expoys found in their news letter. They measured the effectiveness of the different expoys by coating blocks of wood then soaking them in water. The less weight gains the more effective the product but they all gained weight. Expoy is good but not 100%.