Epic de-odorizing novella

[Lifeisgrand]

Hi Peggy,

After doing all the logical things we could think of to de-odorize our boat, we finally broke down and did some internet research and came across your book, which we bought and read cover to cover this year. We’re struggling to rid our 2005 Hunter 33’ sailboat of an unpleasant smell and want to see if you have any suggestions for us, beyond what we read in your book.

Boat Facts
- 25 gallon holding tank with 2 foot hose to pump out and 5/8” vent hose which is 18” long, curved and definitely steeper than 45 degrees
- one head with run of approximately 15 feet to holding tank, some parts “uphill”
- one closed aft cabin and one closed v-berth
- the head is 1/3 of the way up the boat on the starboard side and is the best smelling part of the boat...somehow. The second best smelling part of the boat is the v-berth
- worst smelling part is main cabin followed by aft cabin (the septic hose runs underneath the bunk, this is also where the macerator is/was located)
- holding tank on aft, starboard side and diesel tank on aft, port side
- aft cockpit with port side locker which continually smells (is above and adjacent to diesel tank)
- boat smell is at its worst when we close it up after a weekend with the holding tank full or partially full and return after a week. If we empty the holding tank before leaving the smell is not nearly as bad, but still there
- boat smell is at its best when we spent two weeks on an extended sail, with fresh air circulating constantly, head in use constantly, actually smell was almost completely gone. We would also periodically remove the main septic pump out cap while underway to get more air moving through the tank (after reading your book!)

2010 Season
- bought the boat in February, 2010, didn’t have any noticeable smell, was originally a Sailtime boat
- after the first month boat started to smell, not a normal raw sewage smell, but sort of a mix of sewage, engine smell and.....something else. Was particularly bad after the engine had been running
- strangely, the smell was worst when you first walked in the boat, at head level, above the entrance to the aft cabin, almost like there was a smell trapped between the ceiling and the fibreglass of the boat, which is obviously a very small space...or else the smell was coming from the back and seeping up through there somehow
- we cleaned the boat thoroughly including soaping the aft “crawl-in” compartment where the holding tank and fuel tank are, which worked for a week then the smell was back
- smell from the vent line was terrible so we bought a vent line filter which “fixed” that but, after reading your book, realized this was probably not a good idea
- we replaced main septic line from toilet to tank which had become completely permeated and smelled terrible, we used the highest grade Trident product we could buy, this did reduce the smell somewhat
- we removed the macerator and plugged the holding tank with an end fitting
- completely cleaned the bilge, which did not have any noticeable odour and was not particularly dirty
- cleaned the engine with degreaser and hot water, plus the drip pan which was a little dirty and smelly...but was not “the” smell
- ran an ozonator machine for a few hours, which did nothing
- at the end of the season we removed all cushions, had the covers dry cleaned and washed the foam cushions themselves in our hot tub at the end of the year which completely removed the stink, though took months of drying time in our furnace room
- did all the regular end of season winterizing – emptying holding and water tanks, then putting plumber’s antifreeze throughout
- we had the boat dry docked and over the winter put in kitty litter, de-odourizer packs, etc, but every time we came down it still smelled, though not nearly as strong as during the summer...but still there

2011 Season
- started by scrubbing boat top to bottom using hot water and Pine-sol, boat smelled fine after that
- removed old mattresses in both cabins and replaced with new ones
- removed vent line filter to improve air circulation in holding tank, good for grossing out dock people with the first flush Friday night after work – totally septic
- flush out vent line with water every time we get a pumpout to ensure it stays clear
- replaced wet exhaust hose from diesel engine to exhaust port, was the last remaining thing on the boat that could be permeated with smell, as it passes right through the aft compartment where hodling tank is, and it did smell…but not that bad
- we make sure to flush the toilet with enough pumps to get the waste to the tank every time, and usually put in Odorlos treatment at the end of the weekend
- we use those plug in Glade air fresheners to mask the smell and make it tolerable
- we have pretty much given up hope having an odour free boat

Thoughts
- need a second 1" vent line for holding tank, or aeration system
- maybe there’s an air leak in the holding tank somewhere which is seeping gas or dripping contents, if not, how is that actual smell getting out of the holding tank?
- could be a “hidden” bilge or area somewhere in the boat with a build-up of mold or other nasty stuff
- haven't tried the cupful of vinegar down the head every week

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

A whole bunch of things...

You have two toilets, but only replaced ONE hose (and I'm not even sure which one you consider to be the "main septic line")??? It's a sure bet that if one stinks, they all do...and that includes vent lines...and everything you've written says hoses are at least one of your culprits. So replace ALL of 'em. If "the highest grade Trident product we could buy" isn't anything but Trident 101 or 102, it may already have permeated again...And a 15' run from toilet to tank is unacceptable, so we'll have to fix that too.

We would also periodically remove the main septic pump out cap while underway to get more air moving through the tank (after reading your book!)

You didn't get that idea from my book. No way that would help to the tank, 'cuz the pumpout line comes from the bottom of the tank.. the tank vent supplies air ABOVE the surface. It's also unlikely that any air moving across the top of a horizontal "hole in the deck" could even make it into the tank.

You two separate problems: odor INSIDE the boat and odor out the tank vent.

INSIDE the boat. Unless a tank is leaking, it's rarely if ever the source of odor inside the boat, 'cuz odor from inside a tank has only one place to go: out the vent. So nothing you do to improve tank conditions will cure odor inside the boat. You have at least two sources of odor--prob'ly more: hoses, residual sewage odor, and probly residual diesel odor. Sumps and chain locker are another possible source...you haven't mentioned doing anything to either of those. It's also possible that there is trapped water below the sole, but we won't know that till you've eliminated every other source.

Odor out the tank vent will allmost certainly require some surgery on the tank vent, but just using Odorlos correctly should improve things considerably. If you read the directions, you'll see that they recommend adding more at least every 5 days...more often in hot weather. That's because the active ingredient in it exhausts itself, and also becomes less effective as more waste is added. So if you're only adding immediately after pumpout on Sunday, it's already "gone"" by the time you return on Friday...requiring a new "dose" with the first flush...and more as needed. "As needed" means "when you get the FIRST WHIFF of odor out the vent."

There's a lot more to talk about 'cuz you've barely scratched the surface in eliminating all the sources of odor...but I suggest you spend some time reading the applicable discussions in this forum first. The we can talk some more about what else you need to do to eliminate ALL the odor.

 

[NancyD]

That is quite an epic story! I believe the boat has one head, not two. If that's the vent hose in the middle of the third photo, it should be easy to go to a larger size, but the PVC fittings should be replaced with marelon ones. Have you taken the holding tank out and scrubbed both the tank and the area where it sits? You could also try closing the door to the aft cabin to try and see if the smell is coming from there or the main cabin.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

WHY do you think that the PVC tank fittings should be replaced with Marelon?

 

[JoeWhite]

No one mentioned if fresh water is being used to flush the head or is sea water used. When I bought my boat 18 months ago it also smelled like toilet. I use only fresh water from the water tank to flush the toilet - usually only on no 2 and at the end of the day before leaving the boat. I no longer have the "toilet" smell. Thanks to HeadMistress who taught me the trick !

 

[NancyD]

My own experience has been that PVC components can become permeated with smells just like the hoses. It might not matter so much in the holding tank vent line, but can definitely be a problem in the tank "input" line from the head.

I'm talking about PVC plumbing parts from Home Depot - is there a "marine grade" of PVC and if so how can you tell the difference?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

PVC is PVC no matter where you buy it

There are different kinds--ABS, schedule 40, schedule 80--and the wall thickness can vary..but none of it is odor permeable...which is why boat owners want to use it instead of hose, even in installations that require too many fittings and unions to make it advisable.

So I suspect that any odor you found on any PVC fitting was "applied" to it...either from a leaking connection or maybe an all-but-invisible hairline crack--or residual odor from permeated hoses or a spill that's attached itself to every surface in the area where it occurred.

And btw...a smelly vent line stinks just as much as a smelly hose that carries waste! A discharge hose coming from a fitting at the bottom of a TANK is far more likely to become permeated than a head discharge hose, 'cuz that hose is always full of waste up to the level in the tank. The head discharge hose can be rinsed out.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Uh oh...

I use only fresh water from the water tank to flush the toilet - usually only on no 2 and at the end of the day before leaving the boat. I no longer have the "toilet" smell. Thanks to HeadMistress who taught me the trick !

Please tell me you haven't connected a sea water toilet to your fresh water supply...'cuz there's NO WAY I would EVER have advised doing that!

There are only two safe ways to supply fresh water to a sea water toilet: 1. tee the head intake into the head sink drain line...or 2. install a separate tank to supply flush water that has no connection whatever to the potable water system. Adding water directly to the bowl to flush all the time isn't good for a manual toilet pump and will destroy the intake impeller and housing in a sea water electric toilet.

 

[Lifeisgrand]

Thanks for the information, we have spent several days going through many of the postings on this forum and have a better idea of what we should be looking at.

First, a couple corrections. We have a single head on the sailboat, it is on Lake Erie so fresh water only, and we have replaced every hose except the fresh water intake to the toilet, which does not have any smell. We have also thoroughly cleaned every single accessible inch of the boat with everything from detergent, spray 9, bleach solution and plain old water - this includes the chain locker, cockpit lockers and all sumps. I do realize it's a long run from the toilet to the tank, but what possible options are there for reducing this? The fresh water tank is located in the v-berth, and that's still a 12 foot run anyway. I don't know where else you could locate a holding tank on the boat, and I can't imagine what configuration could shorten this.

From Peggy's posting I now see that odors occurring within the tank and odors occurring elsewhere within in the boat are two separate issues. Also, because the smell inside the boat is not exactly sewer, it is not likely originating from the head system. From some old postings I read that the newer model Hunters have a grid system which is inaccessible and can trap water beneath the sole - I'm thinking this is a very likely culprit. I remember once this summer we cleaned the boat and sprayed water directly underneath the galley icebox (which has simply drains through a drip hose right onto the bottom of the boat, which eventually finds its way into the bilge...or perhaps not) and I did notice a strong smell coming from there, but since there was not way to access it the only option was to dump loads of water in then we set up a fan to blow air through there to dry it out. That did reduce the smell for a while, but by then the cushions were completely permeated so it's hard to tell if we got the source.

I also saw a posting where Peggy recommended cutting new hatches in the floor to access these hidden areas. Doesn't appeal to me too much, but if that's the only option for accessing these areas, we'll have to consider it. If anyone has done this with a later model Hunter (ours is a 2005) I would love to see photos.

So here's our plan. We are going down this weekend on a cleaning mission, will clean every inch of the boat and blast a ton of water and soap into the hidden areas. She is on the hard now and winter is approaching so we'll need to get a lot of air circulating through her to dry out all the water so we don't get any freezing issues. We have already removed all the cushions and are in the process of washing the covers (the foam itself doesn't smell). We are also going to pay particular attention to the diesel tank area and scrub it thoroughly and check for any suspect leaks or residue. Peggy's suggestion of diesel smell caught my attention because the aft port cockpit locker always smells and it's directly above the diesel tank. Also, I bought a large box of Odorlos so will use that more frequently next year to reduce vent line odours.

Thanks again for the info, please let me know if anybody has any other suggestions, or see something I may have missed.

 

[Rick D]

Mybe I Missed It

I am assuming you don't use ice for refrig cooling. If you have not done so, cap off any refrig drains. Just clean out the sump periodically. After you finish this project, I'd suggest running an air pump into the limber holes to see if you can get some movement of air under the grid. I'd not feel comfortable making big holes into the grid though. Maybe some smaller ones, like 1/2 to 3/4 for air access.

Good luck. You have certainly done plenty of work chasing this down. I have to agree that it's probably not the head.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

A couple of things...

We have also thoroughly cleaned every single accessible inch of the boat with everything from detergent, spray 9, bleach solution and plain old water - this includes the chain locker, cockpit lockers and all sumps.

Ok...it's all clean. But none of those things seems to permanently eliminate the residual odor. But there is a product that does: Pure Ayre. PureAyre It's a bit pricy, but it WORKS...the only thing I've found that'll eliminate ANY odor, even diesel and oil.

They'll tell you that, to permanently eliminate any odor, you must first eliminate the source of the odor...otherwise, the odor will just return. You've done that. Now, order a couple of gallons of PureAyre (the household version is less expensive and will works just as well for this as as the marine version)...put it into pump garden sprayer (you could use a trigger spray bottle, but your hand will get VERY tired!)...and coat every surface, nook and cranny with a fine mist of it. Then just LET IT DRY, with all hatches open and even a fan on if possible, for at least 24 hours. If you still have any odor, you missed a spot.

I read that the newer model Hunters have a grid system which is inaccessible and can trap water beneath the sole - I'm thinking this is a very likely culprit...

And I think you're prob'ly right. I dunno why people resist adding hatches to inaccessible areas...they're the simplest permanent solution to a problem. However, the next best thing is a power washer...handiest tool any boat owner can have, 'cuz it cleans out areas you can't reach to clean manually. Use lots of detergent and water, but NO bleach! Rinse thoroughly...suck up all the excess water, then use the Pure Ayre there too.

We prob'ly need to talk one-on-one about how to reroute your toilet plumbing to compensate for the over-long hose run. Send me an email and we'll pick a time to do that.

 

[Lifeisgrand]

We only used the icebox once, and when we realized how it drains, we only use it for dry goods. The air holes are a good idea if hatches are not a desirable option.

I'm going to look around for the PureAyre product, definitely worth a try. I found one online Canadian retailer selling it but the total cost of one gallon was a hundred bucks including delivery...I'm sure I can find it cheaper than that somewhere.

I probably won't have it for this weekend so we'll go with our original plan of washing down the boat with water and detergent, blast water into the grid with a power washer then suck everything up with a wet vac. Next trip down we'll have the PureAyre.

I will contact you by email so we can arrange a time to discuss the plumbing, thanks a million!

 

[redunculous]

Hi Peggy

Apologies to resurrect and jump on this thread

When you mentioned power washer - is that to use below as well?

I worry that if I wet the inside of the boat too much I will never get it dry - am I worrying for no reason?

Thanks for all your help (ordering your book today!)

 

[AtlanticAl]

Ever thought, maybe you are just too sensitive for boats. Maybe a condo would suit you better. You could try a couple of solar powered vents on the boat, if they dont cure it, then you have serious rot, behind the lining, wood rotting out. I would suggest, sell the boat, and buy a condo, there you wont get the smell of oil, or damp, or shit, alternatively, you could buy a respirator for you and your wife, and just wear them, that way you wouldnt smell any boat smells, of course again, if you dont want boat smellls a condo is the best thing.

 

[redunculous]

Ever thought, maybe you are just too sensitive for boats. Maybe a condo would suit you better. You could try a couple of solar powered vents on the boat, if they dont cure it, then you have serious rot, behind the lining, wood rotting out. I would suggest, sell the boat, and buy a condo, there you wont get the smell of oil, or damp, or shit, alternatively, you could buy a respirator for you and your wife, and just wear them, that way you wouldnt smell any boat smells, of course again, if you dont want boat smellls a condo is the best thing.

There is a big difference to 'boat smells' and the smells of a holding tank etc having 'issues' - which are fixable with the knowledge people like Peggy have.

I hardly think telling Lifeisgrand to buy a condo is productive - it comes across as heavy sarcasm which isnt necessary when this forum is for people to seek advice from others who have overcome the same issue.

So speaking of 'shit' please refrain from posting it

 

[Lifeisgrand]

We are now sure that trapped water is the problem. We were not able to completely wash down the inside of the boat, it is on the hard and positioned in such as way that the water we were spraying beneath the floor was not all draining into the bilge and we were worried that if we soaked it too much water it wouldn't dry out properly before freeze up, and that could possibly cause damage. But we did notice that the water that came into the billge had flushed out what looks like mould, so we are positive this is going to fix the issue. We decided to wait until after the winter to fully flush the underside out.

I won't dignify AtlanticAl with a reply to his idiotic comment, let's just hope he finds somewhere else to waste time.

Will update our story in the spring....thanks to all for your help!

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

When you mentioned power washer - is that to use below as well?

Yes...I bought my first one to clean the bilges of a "project" boat. It gets into areas that can't be reached by hand.

I worry that if I wet the inside of the boat too much I will never get it dry - am I worrying for no reason?

As long as you remove all the water left behind by the bilge pumps, and leave hatches open so that plenty of air can circulate, you'll have no worries.

As for AtlanticAl...maintaining a boat is a lot more work than some people today are willing to do, so they accept odor as a reasonable trade off for avoiding it, especially since it quite often relieves 'em of the effort and expense of having to entertain friends aboard--at least more than once.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Sounds like you've finally nailed it...

If you can't remove all the water, add enough non-toxic antifreeze ("pink stuff") toprevent it from freezing. And I'll look forward to working with you to solve all the related problems next spring!

 

[redunculous]

Thanks for answering me on that Peggy,

Goodluck to Lifeisgrand on resolving your issues and apologies for using your thread

 

[AtlanticAl]

There is a big difference to 'boat smells' and the smells of a holding tank etc having 'issues' - which are fixable with the knowledge people like Peggy have.

I hardly think telling Lifeisgrand to buy a condo is productive - it comes across as heavy sarcasm which isnt necessary when this forum is for people to seek advice from others who have overcome the same issue.

So speaking of 'shit' please refrain from posting it

Ok sorry about that, i just think its an awful lot of trouble to go to get rid of something that is doing no harm, other than being annoying. I dont think you can get rid of the smells, i think you can just become obsessed by them, their is too much going on below decks, batteries giving off hydrogen gas, that smells like rotten eggs, the smell of the engine oil, bilge smells, smell of propane, and every gas that is heavier than air ends up in the bilge. If you obsess with it too much, you end up selling the boat, then the next owner dosent even notice any smells.