Energy Wars

[Mike B1026]

Forget all that rewiring, LED lights and insulation, that's old school. Just order one of these:


http://www.tigerdirect.com/sectors/campaigns/kube/kubex15.asp

:dance:

 

[Bad Obsession]

Wow....I was once thinking about converting my icebox because I am sick of being a slave to getting ice, but the ice thing seems like a good idea now. I get ice every day on hot summer days, maybe I will get two days out of ice. If I can get a good homemade block and come cube ice it will last much longer.

 

[Don12364]

I think the War is already lost.

Delighted you have posted on this topic as I have been agonising over this problem for years. My boat setup is similar to yours and I too have removable solar panels. I also bought an Air X wind genny but don't use it because of noise and vibration. My problem is more difficult than yours as my boat lives on a mid-stream mooring with no shore power. So I need to fully recharge my batteries in the five days between weekends away. It seems that everything on a sailboat that needs to run continuously is designed for the lowest possible power consumption. e.g. instruments, lighting etc. Then there are the domestic appliances we bring aboard - toasters, coffee pots, sandwich makers, hair dryers, microwave ovens and the like. These are high power devices, but at least they only run for short periods. In my case I often run the engine only when the microwave is in use. The problem comes when trying to keep things cool. Fridges, freezers and Aircons are tremendous thieves of electrical energy and just running a fridge for a weekend will use up a whole battery full of power. Clearly this is a global problem both on shore and off shore and if it were possible to use less energy then these devices would be improved. Indeed I would wager that the majority of energy consumed by domestic users on a summer's day will be just to keep things cool. Very damaging environmentally too! So the 'battle' is almost lost and the 'war' certainly cannot be won. The answer would seem to be to only buy food and drink that doesn't need to be kept cool to prevent it going off. At first sight this would seem impossible but, in fact, the problem is already largely solved. Nobody keeps canned food in a fridge yet one can buy meat, vegetables and fruit all in cans. Better still most of it is already cooked and only needs heating up. They seal it into the can and then cook it, thus killing all the microbes. An LPG or CNG cooker heats it up a treat and no electrical power is used either. So it is all down to us and the food producers. BTW I would make an exception for the wine and beer but this needs only to be a small??? installation. Either way, no matter what we try to do we are not going to overcome the problem of cooling. There is no solution, nor ever will be unless cooling is possible by non electrical means - or you install a nuclear power generating plant!

 

[Don12364]

I think the 'War' is already lost

Delighted you have posted on this topic as I have been agonising over this problem for years. My boat setup is similar to yours and I too have removable solar panels. I also bought an Air X wind genny but don't use it because of noise and vibration.
My problem is more difficult than yours as my boat lives on a mid-stream mooring with no shore power. So I need to fully recharge my batteries in the five days between weekends away.

It seems that everything on a sailboat that needs to run continuously is designed for the lowest possible power consumption. e.g. instruments, lighting etc. Then there are the domestic appliances we bring aboard - toasters, coffee pots, sandwich makers, hair dryers, microwave ovens and the like. These are high power devices, but at least they only run for short periods. In my case I often run the engine only when the microwave is in use.

The problem comes when trying to keep things cool. Fridges, freezers and Aircons are tremendous thieves of electrical energy and just running a fridge for a weekend will use up a whole battery full of power.
Clearly this is a global problem both on shore and off shore and if it were possible to use less energy then these devices would be improved. Indeed I would wager that the majority of energy consumed by domestic users on a summer's day will be just to keep things cool.
Very damaging environmentally too!

So the 'battle' is almost lost and the 'war' certainly cannot be won. The answer would seem to be to only buy food and drink that doesn't need to be kept cool to prevent it going off. At first sight this would seem impossible but, in fact, the problem is already largely solved.
Nobody keeps canned food in a fridge yet one can buy meat, vegetables and fruit all in cans. Better still most of it is already cooked and only needs heating up. They seal it into the can and then cook it, thus killing all the microbes.
An LPG or CNG cooker heats it up a treat and no electrical power is used either.
So it is all down to us and the food producers.
BTW I would make an exception for the wine and beer but this needs only to be a small??? installation.
Either way, no matter what we try to do we are not going to overcome the problem of cooling. There is no solution, nor ever will be unless cooling is possible by non electrical means
- or you install a nuclear power generating plant!

 

[Rick486]

So maybe I should have put the damn generator in to begin with? No, the service manager was right. Most of the time I don't really need it. Increasing the battery bank gets me nothing but more weight. So, I'm guessing that a battery replacement would make life better for a while and I'll keep considering other options. But, I'm not going to go back to block ice and shut off the freezer!


[/quote]

Yup. And it's not too late. The technology in diesel gensets is way beyond what was out there 10-12 years ago.

 

[Bob J.]

I was always under the impression that adding refrigeration to an ice box on a sailboat would cost you 50 amps every 24 hour period. From the posts above seems that number is pretty accurate.

Ross had mentioned he still used ice in conjunction with his refer system. Cut down his refer run time & the block would last him 5 to 7 days.

The free standing units with the front loading doors are big time energy pigs. When we had the power boat & would be hanging out on the hook, we'd have to run one of the engines a couple times a day just to top the batteries off.

 

[Maine Sail]

More recently, I added four fifty watt solar panels for a total of 266 watts of solar and a MPPT charge controller. I just came back from the island after eight days in the anchorage and this is what I found:

1. The significant solar charge was limited to 10:00 - 4:00 PM (Southern California August). Even with semi-articulating panels, it fell off rapidly before or after.
2. The theoretical output is about 19 amps. I was hoping for 12. I got maybe 9-ish.
3. So, I was only putting back about 10-15 net amp hours during the day.

Rick,
That is HORRIBLE performance from 266 watts of solar. We had a single 80W panel that produced its rating for about 4 - 4.5 hours per day on average. We now have a Kyocera 140 that also produces its rating or slightly better for the same, about 4 - 4.5 hours per day, on average. Sitting in the pouring rain on a very overcast day at 9:02am EST and she's pumping out 1.7A.. I would suggest that your issue is likely placement and how they are wired? Shading, even just a teeny tiny bit, can cripple the performance of the entire array if it is wired so that can happen.

As for refrigeration our vessel did a 5 year 24/7/365 world cruise with the previous owners who are friends. They did this with a 250Ah bank of Wal*Mart batteries and a single 80W solar panel. The alternator was a stock dumb regulated Mitsubishi. We continued to use the same system until a few weeks ago I added the 140W solar and a 140A alternator.

What's the secret? Sea Frost engine driven refrigeration! We love it! Problem is the install is about triple what a DC system is thus Cleave is selling fewer and fewer of them unless, it is someone who has owned it in the past or done some serious homework.

The way I look at it you need to run some sort of engine once per day anyway so why not use it to chill a massive holding plate and charge the batts while you are at it..

When I awoke this morning the holding plate was still at 14.7F and the far end of the box, our ice box is HUGE, at 34F. The SOC was 94%. I flipped on the 12V DC side, we recently added supplemental DC to the engine driven side, and it will stay on for a few hours until I decide I am willing to listen to the engine. I seem to consume about 10Ah's with the DC side per day supplementing the engine side. With the engine running I can get our holding plate to about -17F in 30-40 minutes and pump in the max acceptance into the bank that it will take. This usually gets us back to 80-85%, we rarely drop below 70%, and the solar takes over from there.

We were just out cruising and found with the new system the lowest SOC we hit was 71% and we got to full charge 4 days out of the 12 or about 1/3 of the time. When we would be off the boat hiking etc. I would kill all DC and let the solar work on the bank with no loads to slow it. Our solar is on stern davits and does ok with shading. Nothing on a sailboat is perfect when it comes to shading but certain locations are far better than others.

Without using the DC refrigeration we consume about 5-8% of our banks capacity per day and always have cold food. The DC addition allows us to simply extend the time between engine runs which is nice in a quiet and idyllic Maine anchorage like we are in right now.. I really dislike DC refrigeration, had it on three boats, but as a supplement to our engine driven system is is a great adjunct..

I will never own another boat without engine driven refrigeration again..

 

[MPAPC4]

I like the idea of Nuclear, I checked craigslist but couldn't find one under $30m! although I am not an Electrician, I converted my Catalina 30 to Electric propulsion after my Atomic Bomb blew up, I did learn that correct wire size is absolutely important and clean solid connections are a must. When I rewired my DC panel, I found that a lot of the wiring was copper which corrodes readily in a SW environment and those corroded areas created higher resistance (heat) which is wasted energy.

 

[zeehag]

sounds like i will be using intermittent engel or some such(inexpensive version) of refrigerator, when time comes for that, so i can have enough energy for writing with you guys..LOL..these things run at about 5 amps per hour. (laptops)

 

[Sumner]

sounds like i will be using intermittent engel or some such(inexpensive version) of refrigerator, when time comes for that, so i can have enough energy for writing with you guys..LOL..these things run at about 5 amps per hour. (laptops)

Consider looking for a used cheap notebook for the internet and cut the 5 amps by more than half. The motherboard in our ship's computer uses the same chip set and even running the router and the WiFi radio is under 3 amps. If you ran just a notebook alone you would be about 1 1/2-2 amps.

If you don't have the engel build your own fridge. On your boat there should be plenty of room for a simple insulated box. The fridge build itself is easy. When you buy the ....

...compressor/condensor and the....

....evaporator you get ....

....a thermostat with the wiring. The thermostat wiring plugs in at the ....

...compressor/condenser (left side above) and you just need 12 volts to it. The coolant line form the evaporator in the box....

...attaches also to the compressor/condenser, arrows. Before I started making the fridge I was somewhat intimidated by it but there is no black magic or anything and you will have a fridge or fridge/freezer that doesn't cost much more than the Engel but will be larger and consume much less electricity.

There is no reason for one of these to consume more than 24 amp hours a day unless you are looking at a huge box and a large freezer. Our portable and an Engle is going to consume about 35-40 amp hr. a day due to the limited insulation. With the smaller draw of the home built one you can go with less solar saving money there.

Sum

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[zeehag]

sumner--i have lots of solar i am not using at moment-- i have a bin into which i can place a engel-type thing that is self contained and only needs to be plugged into a socket for use--or flip a switch just for it--havent figured this all out as yet--looking for the best and simplest and most cost effective method and ends---
there is enough room in the space formosa provided for me to install more insulation wherever i may need to so do.....i am looking out for input and researching before i fix that structure supporting the potential food cooling unit, then onward..isnt this year....
i appreciate your input--yer smarts, and ye have good ideas..

 

[Sumner]

..- i have a bin into which i can place a engel-type thing that is self contained and only needs to be plugged into a socket for use---------------there is enough room in the space formosa provided for me to install more insulation wherever i may need to so do......

I am not positive on this, but I don't think you can stuff more insulation around the portables like the Engel or our similar EdgeStar. I can't remember where I got that info, but I made sure that there was actually...

..some space around ours when I ...

....build a storage unit. For sure you need to keep the .....

...cooling ducts free. There are 3 ducts on ours, front, back and side on the compressor/condenser end. I think I'd call Engle, I know hard for you, but maybe I could do it for you, and talk to a tech and see what they say about putting more insulation around one of the portable boxes. Let me know if I can help.

Also where you are I'd think that maybe you could get some fairly skilled labor to build a box and such for not too much. Hooking the components up is simple, don't let that deter you. If you build the box it can have as much insulation as you can get in there.

If our EdgeStar quits that we use with the Mac I'm going to build an insulated box for it and go the same way as we did on the Endeavour. Just so many pluses vs. the portables. Wish I knew what I know now when we bought it.

We would never go back to ice and the dependence on having to find it every 5 days or so cruising and the soggy food,

Sum

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[Stu Jackson]

Sum, one question re your wonderful installation (I read the whole thing, twice!) --- have you considered access to the fan? My experience is that the fans "die" first. FYI, they can be replaced with a simple Radio Shack four inch computer fan. You might want to buy one as a backup before you head off. $25 vs. $45 from a fridge vendor.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3044.msg16822.html#msg16822

and

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3044.msg27074.html#msg27074

 

[Sumner]

. have you considered access to the fan? My experience is that the fans "die" first. FYI, they can be replaced with a simple Radio Shack four inch computer fan. You might want to buy one as a backup before you head off. $25 vs. $45 from a fridge vendor.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3044.msg16822.html#msg16822

and

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3044.msg27074.html#msg27074

A backup would be a good deal. I think I'll get one, thanks. Getting to the fan is simple....

I just slide the piece above out and the compressor/condenser is on a ....

wood platform that is screwed to the cabin sole. Remove the couple screws and the whole deal will pull out some without disconnecting the coolant lines or the electrical, giving easy access to the fan on the near end in the picture above. I get kind of anal about having things functional first and looks second :cry:.

My main fear is some other failure more drastic than the fan while we are cruising. We are using the quarter berth as a storage area. We could take the portable with us in that area and stuff it with dry food or other items. Worst case we could also put ice in the new fridge box and use it as an ice box. Then there is also the ice box back in the corner of the galley counter top that came with the boat, but it is a real pain to access and I'd think ice wouldn't last long in it. It is a bad design and is the reason we didn't try and modify it. We really like what we have now,

Sum

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[Stu Jackson]

Sum, that's what I thought when I read the details, just didn't know how many screws you needed to get the shroud loose.

 

[Rick D]

Some Thoughts

"The LED lights that I have tested only put out about half the lumens of a 10W halogen. Or the really bright ones either don't fit or are priced well in excess of my pain threshold."
Yes, I purchased mine from superbrightleds.com and I think they were about $250 total or there about. I agree the lumens are a fraction of the halogen they replaced but they are good enough for my use. The navigation lights are Doctor LED and as I recall they were just over a hundred. I purchased them when they first came on the market and if nothing else, they have been very reliable. The LED conversion made sense to me because of the distance races I do. Added together, the energy savings is almost the same as the refrig use overnight with crew.

"Get a lamp oil trawler lamp - great for "good vibes" lighting"
Got one and use it all the time. one of my favorite things. Not a huge one tho. It's in the main salon and I leave it on all night on races. Nice glow, not bad on the eyes and smells better than the crew.

"If I build the boxes and have the cabinetry done I'm probably looking at 3.5 grand or more..."
Ditto, and probably only the labor. Actually the hunter boxes are pretty well insulated from a depth of insulation perspective but I doubt the quality of the insulation is great and certainly not as good as when it was new. Basically, to change out the insulation would be in my estimation a full week's job not including the trim refinishing necessary afterwards. That's a lot of money for an annoyance.

"Rick are all of the panels running to the MPPT? If so there is a possibility of the different panels, 22 watt and 50 watt, maybe cutting down on the controllers efficiency. With the MPPT it works best when all of the panels are identical. Next best when they are the same cell type and have very similar operating voltages."
Yes, all are going into the same controller. Good point and one that requires more testing. The four fifty watt panels are monocrystaline and the flexible ones are whatever they are. In fact, you mentioned this before and as I recall I checked the operating voltage output of both and they were similar. However, they are certainly different by construction. I need to do more dockside comparisons with 50% batteries and see how it all works out. No room for more panels.

"While doing this I found that the PO had added to his solar array without increasing his wire size from the first 50 watt panel."
Fortunately, it was all done at once and I have more than adequate sizing, but I can see where this could be a problem.

"The answer would seem to be to only buy food and drink that doesn't need to be kept cool to prevent it going off."
Yes, and that is certainly what people do when preparing for long Pacific Ocean passages. It's a proper approach. Having said that, fresh stuff just doesn't last long in a marine environment without refrigeration and while careful selection and storing in the green bags help, it not a total solution. But I totally agree (and our stories point out) that refrigeration is a disproportionate consumer of wattage. especially with a decent sized freezer.

"The technology in diesel gensets is way beyond what was out there 10-12 years ago."
Yes, it is. I think I could put in a 150 amp DC genset, plus some cabinetry, plus through hulls and exhaust for around seven to eight thousand. I would guess the recovery value on resale would be a third to fifty percent. But, I'm still running something and hauling around a couple of hundred pounds I don't need all the time.

"Ross had mentioned he still used ice in conjunction with his refer system. Cut down his refer run time & the block would last him 5 to 7 days."
I have not tried that in this boat, but as I mentioned, in my 32, I did just that successfully while I could get decent ice. Right now, all the stuff in the stores is junk and the ice machines where we could get quality clear block ice are gone. It's probably available somewhere though. I also used dry ice but wasn't happy using that below. Worked good in a decent ice chest on the deck.

"That is HORRIBLE performance from 266 watts of solar. We had a single 80W panel that produced its rating for about 4 - 4.5 hours per day on average."
I don't know what would be good. I sure wasn't expecting anywhere near the 19 amp potential; maybe 12. Nine does seem low to my way of thinking too. I did not install the blocking diodes as the research I did suggested that switches were a better solution and anyway, the backfeeding was about a wash with the voltage reduction using them. So, I put in switches since I'm using the panels predominantly while aboard. I do get some shading from the mast and rig and will shut off a panel if material.

An engine (or genset driven) compressor sounds great, but then again I'm still running something. What I'd like to do is reduce the run time to a couple of hours every third day. Obviously, I'm only part of the way there. In SoCal, most of our 'cruising' is going to the Channel Islands for (in our case) a week to two at a time. Once there we usually sit tight, especially since we have our own mooring in our preferred location. If we are harbor hopping up or down the coast, there is no issue since there will always be, as you note, enough run time to bring the batteries at least to 80% and that's if we anchor, and not all that many harbors have decent anchorages anyway, at least inside a breakwater or with reasonable depths.

I do think I should be getting more power out and will do further testing to figure out what's going on, but I suspect the best I can expect is another 20AH a day or so. I need to think this out further. I do keep coming back to redoing the insulation, but that's a really expensive proposition in both time and money.

"...these things run at about 5 amps per hour. (laptops)"
I can appreciate that! When I started using one for navigation, I went to a netbook which has less than half that consumption. In fact, I have been considering an installation using this with a Solid State Drive:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110827710886?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619

 

[Sumner]

"...these things run at about 5 amps per hour. (laptops)"
I can appreciate that! When I started using one for navigation, I went to a netbook which has less than half that consumption. In fact, I have been considering an installation using this with a Solid State Drive:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110827710886?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619

That computer is very similar to the one I put together. Mine uses...

http://www.logicsupply.com/products/nf94_270_lf

...a chip set that is a little slower (probably the same set that is in your netbook) and is a single core vs. the dual core that one is. All of my antiquated software that I use on my site doesn't know about dual cores, so it is pretty much a waste for what I'm doing. The more powerful the computer the more elect. it takes. I think my single core is around 8-10 watts and that dual core is around 16 watts, but that is going on about what I think I found out about 2 years ago. That is also the needs for the board and CPU and doesn't take into account the hard drive, monitor and if you have a router or wifi adapter or DVD drive running. Mine uses about 1.8 amps including the 16 inch monitor and with the hard disk idling and a little more during disc access. I thought about a solid state HD, but I have everything I do on the computer and it is about 80 gig worth at the moment so went with a 2 1/2 inch laptop HD that is 320 gig. I've had no problems with it.

You will also need an operating system and I paid about $100 for a 32 bit windows 7. You would need a 64 bit version for that dual core. All of my expenses are here...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-navigation/Comp-ChartPlot-6.html

I might also mention one other thing. That computer has no external COM (RS 232 serial ports). If you run SeaClear or OpenCPN or something else that uses a serial port I'd look at one of the other ones they have that already have an external serial port on the back of the computer. They have them in their 'other products'. The one you posted has a 'header' inside that is a COM port and could be used with the appropriate plugs and such coming out of the box, just more things to get and messier. The one I got has external serial ports that I use with the nav programs. You could use a USB to serial device, but why when you wouldn't have to?

We also added a DVD drive for movies on-board and a USB TV stick. The hardest thing for me to find was a small case that would take the board, a 1/2 high card and the DVD drive, but I finally found one and it also has USB on the front and audio there also. If you get one of those I think you will like it,

Sum

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[Rick D]

Nice job on the computer! I agree I don't need a dual core and having a serial port would be great since my AIS receiver has one and the USB adapter isn't always reliable with Polar View. I use Open CPN pretty much full time now. I purchased Polar View and like it a lot but quit using it since it drops the AIS from time to time and they said it was likely the adapter. This isn't a priority but it would tidy up things a lot and I can use the netbook elsewhere.
BTW, I think part of the reason that the different cellular construction of the solar panels wasn't expected to be an issue is because I didn't expect to get out of bulk anyway. Still, I need some more dockside experimentation with 50% batteries.

 

[Sumner]

Nice job on the computer! I agree I don't need a dual core and having a serial port would be great since my AIS receiver has one and the USB adapter isn't always reliable with Polar View. I use Open CPN pretty much full time now. I purchased Polar View and like it a lot but quit using it since it drops the AIS from time to time and they said it was likely the adapter. This isn't a priority but it would tidy up things a lot and I can use the netbook elsewhere.
BTW, I think part of the reason that the different cellular construction of the solar panels wasn't expected to be an issue is because I didn't expect to get out of bulk anyway. Still, I need some more dockside experimentation with 50% batteries.

Thanks. You get the most benefit from the MPPT when you are in bulk, so you want it working best then. I don't know why the different cell type is an issue as long as the working voltage is the same and don't know if they have the same effect on influencing the controller.

You are probably aware of this, but the main benefit of the MPPT over the PWM controller is that the MPPT can manipulate the amps coming out of the controller. The PWM basically connects the panel to the battery.

If you have say an 80 watt panel it is only providing 80 watts at its working voltage. Take for instance this 80 watt panel...

http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Pane...80-Watt-12-Volt-Solar-Panel/product_info.html

....its operating voltage is 17.2 and its operating amperage is 4.65 amps. 17.2 X 4.65 = 79.98 watts. So at the panel it is an 80 watt panel. Now if you use a PWM controller and it connects the panel to the battery which is low and at 12.0 volts we now have 12.0 X 4.65 = 55.8 watts. Our panel that is an 80 watt panel is only producing 55.8 watts :cry:. The MPPT controller is able to change the input amps from the panel's 4.65 to 6.66 amps, if it was a perfect world, which would be about the 30% increase they often claim as 12.0 X 6.66 = 79.92 watts (the panels full potential).

A low battery takes better advantage of the MPPT vs. say a full battery. Take a battery that is almost fully charged at 12.6 volts. Now with the PWM controller we have 12.6 X 4.65 amps = 58.6 watts. The watts is still not the 80 that is advertised but higher than when the battery was at 12.0 volts.

The other thing is that once the battery gets closer to full charge it can't take as many amps. So with a larger array and an MPPT the battery can't use the extra amperage the MPPT can produce so the difference between it and the PWM is less.

On the Mac with 2 12 volt marine batteries in parallel at 12.0 volts I'll start the gen-set I made....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-13.html

.... and see 22-24 amps for a couple minutes going to the batteries and then it starts to drop pretty rapidly. After 20 minutes or so it will be down to 10 amps. After that on the gen-set it takes a long time to top off. I'll turn it off and let the panels do the rest with the MPPT controller. At first they are putting out the 10 amps, but during the day as the batteries top off they also decrease because the batteries won't take more. Once they start dropping a PWM controller would probably provide all of the amperage the batteries could take.

I'll still take the MPPT over the PWM even if it only gives me on the average 10% more since I can't add panels and wish to optomize what I have.

The point of all of the above, sorry for wandering around, is that your MPPT controller can do you the most good when the batteries are low (50%) so you want to make sure it is not being handicapped then by mismatched panels that could reduce its effectiveness and I can't say if yours are mismatched or not.

There is much more to it than what I posted above. Here is a good article shown how the panels are more efficient in cold climates and how in those situations the MPPT can be even more beneficial...

http://www.solarhome.ru/en/control/mppt/index.htm

Keep us updated on what you discover ,

Sum

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[RAD]

I've made ton's of improvements to my Oday and one of the last items are solar panels and refrigeration and while on the hook last night for the third day I read this post with great interest and then went to check the blocks of ice in the coolers stopping along the way to check my battery's......I lost two batterys a few weeks ago and have been waiting till the season ends before buying a pair of T105s
I figured out a way to add insulation around my ice box without taking too much of the boat apart and using spray foam has helped in keeping ice about 5 to 6 days and my intention was to modify this box with a reefer unit some day and after reading this post I'll do the solar panels first and save a few more dollars and go for the engine compressor system
I have converted my lights bulbs in the cabin to LED's years ago and have been very pleased with the color and brightness....got them from Sailor's Solutions
http://www.sailorssolutions.com/ and we use the lights all the time and I don't even think about what they draw, the biggest draw is the microwave and I'll start the engine for that and then there's the TV that is old school 110 volt and a separate 12 volt DVD player and now the TV has a hum when turned on cause I think I damaged it with the inverter so a combo TV/DVD that works on 12 volts is in my very near future