Electronics - wants vs needs

Bill Roosa · Feb 17, 2007

Different strokes

I guess it depends on what you do sailing for Moody. I like to get somewhere and then spend time relaxing. The boat is just a means of getting there and then providing me the creature comforts while I enjoy the area.I'm not against all the electronic toys and I agree with your "work load" comments but what concerns me is all the folks out there that depend on these toys to the exclusion of knowing how to operate a boat safely with out them. How many times will be have to hear "we abandoned ship because we lost our GPS and didn't know how to get home" before we realize these folks are a danger to themselves and others. I'm not a fan of government mandated courses but I do believe that if you are going to "go down to the sea in ships" you should have some basic skills. Not because the government mandated them but because it is dangerous not to.It is not about not using the toys, it is about being able to safely get to port when you can't use them.I guess I have had Mr. Murphy enter my life too often to believe all my toys will always be available and work perfectly. Life is just not like that.

Robert Gainer · Feb 17, 2007

Bill, do I need to say sorry?

Bill,You are correct and if you are discussing lifeboat navigation there are tricks you can use such as timing the length of the day to get latitude. And taking the time of sunset or sunrise and treating it as a sight with an observed altitude of 0 degrees which will tell you something about longitude etc. But I don’t consider these tricks suitable for day to day use.And you don’t offend me when you discuss maps instead of charts. That’s why I said “may mark you as a beginner” instead of saying it did mark you as such. Sometimes there are reasons why things are the way they are and your background is a good reason. Sorry if my words were not selected carefully enough but writing is not my best subject.I like the drawing to the left of your post under your name. What is the origin of that drawing?All the best,Robert Gainer

NautiDuck · Feb 17, 2007

Bill, chill

I don't need to unplug and I don't sail by looking at instruments. I do sail to relax. Knowing data in a hurry may not be needed out in the deep blue, but when you are in tighter areas with rocks and depth hazards I maintain that speed of access to nav information is important. You can go to the cabin and plot on the map, I'll look at the chartplotter in the cockpit.Some of you old salts crack me up. Capt Bligh?? Are you kidding me? Should we take all the avionics out of planes because Lindberg didn't use them? Or, more correctly, he didn't HAVE them. If Bligh had access to a Raymarine E120 plotter/radar/sounder I bet he would have used it.;-)

Moody Buccaneer · Feb 17, 2007

I admit I'm not much of a cruiser.

I like to sail, I prefer sailing to sitting at anchor. This becomes a problem for me when out for a week with Wench. 15-25 mile days and time at anchor are her comfort zone (sailing for 5 hours, sitting for 19). I like to get underway soon after sun up and the coffee is made and sail until dusk.Sailing is like riding my motorcycle, if I sail or ride hard enough I have to concentrate on the immediate task at hand and I use that to drive the stress demons of work etc. away ... at least for the time I'm immersed in sailing or riding.Wench says I'm obsessive compulsive about the things I do. I have the experience to build reliable systems and provide reliable back-ups for those systems (by back-ups have back-ups). The chance of me "Needing" to know celestial navigation is very slim. However, I will have that knowledge before I set off across an ocean, I might even carry a globe and string to back-up the sextant.

I'm sure that I will end up competing with Ray to see if I can navigate as well as he does.I agree with Robert about the skill level of sailors, particularly those going offshore. My job and forums like this expose me to the depth of ignorance among sailors. There is nothing quite like a call that asks for "a ballpark" price for replacing the rigging from someone that does not even know what size the wire on their boat is. When you try to tell them that you need that information to answer their question, they just don't get it. Would they call a tire store and ask for a price without knowing what size tires they have? "How much rope do I need to buy to replace the halyard?" How hard can that be to figure out? (Twice the hoist plus distance to cleat plus 5'). The recurring threads about LED lights are another good example. The regulations for colour angle and distance of visibility exist for a reason. Altering lights without knowing the effect is ignorance. The same applies to piloting and navigation. People are learning what buttons to push rather than why they are pushing them. They have no idea how accurate the information they get is, since they lack the knowledge and skill to figure it out for themselves. I am NOT saying that they are stupid, just ignorant/uneducated/inexperienced. It is my opinion that they are unsafe boaters.Just the opinion of an old curmudgeon.

Fred · Feb 17, 2007

Boys! Boys! You're both right!

It's laxative AND a laundry detergent.Poor Barry asked if anyone had experience with different resolutions of GPS screens and what plotters folks like.I think we all agree that you should have paper charts and keep track of where you are in some way in case all the electronic toys fail. Beyond that it's like sloop or ketch rig, or do you sail so you can anchor or anchor so you can sail. Personal choices.

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Feb 17, 2007

Nauti....I agree with you

Nauti, I agree with you 100%, but I think your comments fall on deaf ears. If you will notice, most of the anti-new technology crowd doesnt fill out a 'profile' in the "OWNERS DIRECTORY" so we dont know what, where or how they sail. My best guess is that they have never sailed to somewhere they have never been before and even then , only with the best of weather. Otherwise, they would understand the need for things like GPS for navigating through stretches where one cannot see from one buoy to the next and experience strong cross currents that could drag them onto oyster reefs or rocks. BTW, I had an older Catalina 25 and took it through hell and back. Great boat and fun to sail. Tony B

Robert Gainer · Feb 17, 2007

The last I heard my hearing was fine.

Tony B,It’s interesting how the internet forums work. At some point facts and honest opinions drop out and emotional personal attacks start. Am I deaf because I sail differently then you? The last I heard my hearing was fine. I simply have the opinion that modern technology is being substituted for skill and practice. That doesn’t mean that I don’t use technology but in fact when I deliver a boat I use the best technology available because I am doing a job not playing a game. And by the way delivery means trans-ocean as much as coastal. But on my own boat I sail to test and improve my skill. I don’t go out and sail back and forth watching a screen. I sail with a taffrail log, sextant and hand lead and sometimes without an engine. As they say, I am one with the boat and have a feel for what’s happening. When I leave the mooring I go to England, Greenland or maybe Africa. Having or not having a profile doesn’t change my place in the world or diminish my skill. I have sailed “somewhere” as you say and in fact have sailed on everything from square riggers to small yachts and in commercial sail in capacities ranging from ships boy to Sailing Master. That gives me some standing among my peers and the right to an opinion.All the best,Robert Gainer

John Nantz · Feb 17, 2007

4 Wheel Drive Just Gets You More Stuck

When I got my new F-150 in a high elevation (read snow in winter) rural (read many dirt roads) western ranching/logging community, many of the guys I worked with wondered why 2-wheel drive? The answer is that 4-wheel drive just gets your more stuck. The analogy can be carried on to boat instrumentation.I've had my GPS crap out on me in pea-soup fog. If that wasn't enough, the depth sounder, knot meter, and radar also started having problems all at the same time and in unfamiliar territory with lots of rocks in Alaska. If that isn't enough, this was one of the only places I didn't have the most detailed paper chart on board. Had to resort to bearing and distance based on our last known position and felt our way over to an area where I could drop the hook and figure things out. Proceeded at "dead slow" (this term takes on a new meaning) toward the rock-strewn shore to finally drop the hook in about 35 to 40 feet. Turned out to be a wiring malfunction in the back of the panel. Thank goodness for my Wheems & Plath Venus compass. The point is - all those bells and whistles can just get you more stuck.In the early days before yachties had electronic depth sounders, on a shoal draft boat, you could tell when you were getting into shallow water by watching and reading your wake. Of course, us in the Northwest where it's possible to be in 100-ft of water within a boat length of shore wouldn't find this technique useful.Up until just a few years ago the M/V Uchuck plied the West Coast of Vancouver Island, a.k.a. the graveyard of the Pacific, using a fog horn to determine it's position from shore http://www.mvuchuck.com/ in all kinds of weather. Even today, many cruiser wana-bees, even with all their bells and whistles, consider the successful navigation of this section of coast a mark of passage, and then even during the optimum good weather time of year! To answer the question - wants vs. needs - it seems to me the list of wants includes a lot of bells and whistles over what is needed. Personally, I'd like to see a good compass, and one free from magnetic interference, or at least compensated for the interference, in the "needs" list. And then have some fall-back options when the bells and whistles go south.Just remembered - making a crossing from Cape Scott to Cape St. James, in the middle of the night with drizzle, fog, and light rain, with 25kts apparent, in the vicinity of the worlds tallest measured wave, approaching some rock islets, and my GPS starts going into major hourglass, and then I notice that the lights seem to be awfully dim...... the crew is sick and useless .... and not to mention the skipper isn't feeling that good either.....Just keep thinking about 4WD!

Ross · Feb 17, 2007

In the days when boys became men

apprenticing in the employ of a master the senior apprentice had the privilege of holding the light for the master to work by. This gave the apprentice the best view of the work. The expression "he couldn't hold a candle to ...." came from that era. If you were so inept as that, you either knuckled down and learned the trade or you found another master. Some of us here could hold the light for some of the master mariners that post here but must of us (myself included) can't claim to be master mariners and would do well to seek the privilege of holding the light and learning from them.

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Feb 17, 2007

Robert gainer on personal attacks..

Apparently your hearing is excellent, but your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.First off, my statement " most of the anti-new technology crowd doesnt fill out a 'profile' in the "OWNERS DIRECTORY". Sooooooooooooo, you took ofense because you 'didnt' fill out a profile and you are anti-technology?Please check your own Avatar and click on it....i believe that is you in the profile? isnt it? You also stated..."but in fact when I deliver a boat I use the best technology available" that was you, wasnt it, that said that? Or are you the only one that can use technology?I fail to see your point. Take class in reading comprehension, then write me.Please note that just because you have trouble with the english language, that doesnt mean i dont respect your opinions when it comes to your sailing ability.I read your 'profile' or was that you? Isnt that what is in question?

Ross · Feb 17, 2007

This is beginning to turn into a pi$$ing match

The question of what you need is, I suppose based on how much you know. I build remodeling projects just like they did 200 years ago,, With the very best tools that I can get. But if you take those tools away from me I can still work. So the question becomes; Do you have the knowledge and skill to get to where you want to go without the latest technology? It does NOT mean that you have to do it that way but it is well if you CAN.Someone mentioned cars without electric starters and non synchronous gear boxes and hand cranked windows and mechanical brakes. I have driven such as that also farm trucks that fit that discription. Would I buy one today? Of course NOT. But could I drive one if that was all that was available? you bet I could.

r.w.landau · Feb 17, 2007

Barry, After 30 posts, did anyone answer your

questions?r.w.landau

Ross · Feb 17, 2007

I think that Barry threw up his hands in disgust

and left the ship.

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Feb 17, 2007

Ross and RW.....

He probably did give up and I dont think anyone actually answered his question. Just seems like all 'either/or' questions such as this post asking whether to buy part A or part B, turn out to be " why buy any of them at all" type discussions. I got my excuse...I'm in 'Blue Water Rehab' with lots of spare time.These forums help pass the day. regards Tony B

r.w.landau · Feb 17, 2007

Tony B, I wish this forum would chill a bit...

The experience here is wonderful. People that are knowledgable from both the tech aspect and the practical aspect. I think the ego stuff is getting crazy.Years ago this forum helped the beginner and the experienced sailor with fair and reliable input.Input should be just that. A post doesn't need to crush another opinion ( unless it is dangerious and can hurt someone) A post is a post. People ask questions and other people input their ideas. Let the poster sort the info.Tony B, I think we are all a bit edge.....y. Remember we are taking to sailor, not the bad stinkpotter!

r.w.landau

Maine Sail · Feb 17, 2007

To actually answer your question..

My opinion of Lowrance is that it's one notch above a Yugo in terms of quality. Again this is my opinion and I'm sure some will become very defensive over my opinion. My view is based on my dealings with two seperate Lowrance color plotters. When trying to resolve issues the company was unresponsive & treated my brother like crap when the one on his Whaler crapped out after six weeks. He finally got in touch with a human being at Lowrance and sent it back for repair which took months. When Lowrance finally did send it back it showed up with the same problems and he paid for the shipping! To make a long story short after three attempts at repair, over $135.00 in shipping, and almost a year he gave up and threw it away. Lowrance might be fine for a Glastron or Bass boat used on a lake but they are NOT ocean tough or very reliable. My buddy Kai also pruchased one, not he same model as my brothers, but a Lowrance based on price alone, even though I advised him to spend the extra $80.00 on a Garmin. Kai's lasted one month even less than my brothers! Both of them now have Garmin plotters and have had no problems.Sorry I know nothing about the Eagle product but I do know that you don't want to buy marine products by price alone!As for the Standard Horizon it's a fine radio but it's no Icom. That being said Standard Horizon products work and hold up fairly well in the marine environment. I have a hand held Standard Horizon, my beater radio, that has been kicked around the dinghy floor, dropped on a pebble beach and dropped off the dinghy dock into three feet of water and it still works fine. The audio/signal quality is not quite as good as my Icom but it cost far less and has held up well to my abuse.Screen resolution: A lot will depend on the size screen but the biggest concern is DAYLIGHT VISABILITY. I would not get to concerned about resolution, unless you want satelite photos displayed, but I would worry about a daylight visable screen under direct sun. NMEA - Radar: While I truly love the radar overlay feature on my Raymarine C-80 display the price for this feaure is astronomical and not necessarily worth it unless you plan on sailing in the fog a lot. On my next boat I will be installing a Garmin radar/plotter unit with their new 18 inch 4kw dome but then again I'm in Maine and use my radar a lot. You'd be amazed what your ears, eyes and nose will tell you in the fog though.. Yes you can get some fog in NY but you can do fine without radar provided you are competent without instruments in the fog. I don't think radar is necessary but it is a nice feature for weather, fog and night passages. I sailed Maine for 26 years without radar or plotters but they sure make things easier. If you can afford it go for it. If it's a finincial struggle DON'T. You can interface any NMEA unit to an autopilot with the standard 0183 so don't get to worked up over that feature unless you decide to go BIG (radar/plotter combo) with your package but most all of them will come with the "new" NEMA anyway and should be backwards compatible.Disclaimer - I currenlty own Raymarine stuff C-80, wind, depth, speed, auto-pilot & radar but feel, based on experience, Garmin is a better quality product in terms of their price, customer service/support, ease of use, durability and charts. I just wish Garmin built the other products too like auto, wind, depth 7 speed...Sorry guys I feel no need to go any deeper into the "Out House" vs. "Indoor Plumbing" debate it's been beaten to death here and the old baggy wrinckles are going to stick with the horse and buggy no matter what. To tell you the truth I can't believe some of these guys actually sail "plastic" boats and not the tried and true "woodies".....

Don S/V ILLusion · Feb 17, 2007

Must be a long winter

At least that's my theory why people are acting this way. Regardless,you asked "Does 640 X 480 resolution make reading a chart easier than 320 X 320 resolution?"My opinion is not anything you would say "wow" to or even notice unless you had them side-by-side which is my suggestion. Go into a store which sells them and do such a comparison to see for yourself.Next question you asked " Will having SONAR enable me to get 30' closer to the beach?" Given that typically less than a boat length, no, I don't think it matters moreso than simply having an accurate depthsounder. In those rare situations where a boat length is critical, you'll be going so slowly so as to be safe regardless which you choose.didn't read most of the previous post so sorry if some of this is redundant

NautiDuck · Feb 17, 2007

Re-consider Radar

You said "For those trips, I may be out in fog, rain, dark, and other bad weather conditions. I will be sailing in unfamiliar waters. So that's the real reason why I want a GPS chartplotter."You did not include that information in your first post. I would think that Radar would be a good thing for those conditions too.

Wanderer138 · Feb 17, 2007

Needs vs wants - my two cents

I'd have to say I agree with those who said you NEED to know how much water is under your keel, where you are, your course and your speed...in that order. How you obtain that information (and keep track of it) is really a matter of personal preference and budget. There's enough "stuff" (thanks, George Carlin) in the stores to satisfy the "wants" of traditionalists, technophiles and everybody else in between. The real winner in this debate is probably the marine retail industry...PeterH23 "Raven"

Electronics - wants vs needs

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