Electronics - wants vs needs

[BarryL]

Hello,The posting on the "Garmin chartplotter for a good price" got me thinking.Last November I bought a 1986 O'day 35. The boat has old electronics - basic knot / log meter, depth finder, and wind instrument that half works (wind direction works but not wind speed). I am going to buy a chartplotter and I'm trying to determine which unit and features to get.On my last boat (which is for sale) I installed a Lowrance 3.5" color chart plotter / sonar unit. I was very happy with that unit. It was cheap (less than $400) and worked great as a chart plotter, knot meter, and depth finder. The only thing I didn't love about that unit was the small screen. 3.5" is OK, and was definitely better than the hand held Garmin unit I used to use, but something bigger would be better.My budget is limited, so I would like to keep the price to $750 or less. Since my O'day has a shoal keel and a functioning depth meter, I'm trying to determine if I need the sonar function or not. It seems like adding sonar to a chartplotter adds $100 - $200 to the price. However, in the summer my family and I love to anchor close to the shore and go swimming. The sonar on the old boat (with 5.5' draft) came in very handly when trying to determine how close to the shore I could get.My next concern is about screen resolution. Some Eagle units have 640 X 480, Lowrance has 480 X 480, Garmin (at least the affordable units), Standard Horizon, Navman, and most others have 320 X 320 resolution. How much of a difference will this have 'in the real world?'My last concern is support for new features like NMEA2000, RADAR Compatabilty, etc. The new Lowrance and Garmin units have all those features, while the others do not.My current plan is to get a Lowrance LMS522CI GPS / Sonar unit. The price is about $600 with transducer. I can get an Eagle unit (very similar but without Sonar) for less than $500.One last thing, I also am going to get a new VHF. I like the Standard Horizon GX1500 because it is a class D DCS, and can also work as a repeater in the cabin since it will display LAT / LONG, course, and speed. Any comments on that choice? Thanks!BarryBarry LenobleCurragh, 1986 O'day 35Mt. Sinai, NYlenoble@optonline.net

 

[mike C16582]

comments

Barry, I don't really know that a fishfinder/sonar is as important as a good quality chartplotter/gps and a good vhf. I love the Standard Horizon vhf with the Ram mic in the cockpit...it's like having 2 units and I connect them to the gps and have the DSC signal in case of emergencies.I am impressed wqith the quality of most of the Garmin stuff (I do love their handheld gps and will be getting one this spring as a backup)....my only concern is that their chartplotter uses a propriatary(sp?) chart chip (which costs $$) and if you ever decide to get another chartplotter, you'd have to get a new chip as well. MY SH chartplotter uses C-Map NT+ which is used in many different chartplotters. Just a thought. Also...I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT older NMEA electronics interface with the new NMEA 2000 stuff. (me thinks...) That is one of the questions I will ask this weekend at the sail expo in MIami......Mike C.O'28 "Da Capo"

 

[NautiDuck]

Don't forget the data card

My boat has functioning depth and knot meter so all I needed was the GPS plotter. While radar would be nice it is another $1,000 at least so that just isn't happening right now. Don't forget that with many of these GPS devices you will need to buy the data card/charts and that can cost significantly more $. Price the whole package, including maps, to get the entire cost picture. Based on your description it sounds like you need a depth meter. Having it on the GPS screen is a nice way to do it.I guess my main advice would be don't think too far ahead as in "I'll get a radar compatible unit and add radar in a few years." In a few years a lot will have changed and there will be better, and less expensive, options.

 

[Nice N Easy]

My 02

I have an almost new Garmin 498C. And I love it. I bought the transducer with it which was a very good thing to do. First I was going to take this boat from NY back to Slidell. It was cheaper to buy the 498, than a cheaper unit and have to buy the chips/downloads for that much area. I also found that the existing depth on the boat was not dead on. I have a Garmin 182 on my other boat, ( which is for sale ) and have had extremely good results with it.

 

[Fred]

Sounds like you have a depth sounder

already. Unless you need more sophisticated depth information, I would just get the plotter. If one function of a multi function unit fails, you have a piece of gear that you need to replace. Either stand alone units, or integrated units from the same manufacturer seem like a good choice.

 

[Poca Long]

Do you own a laptop?

If so, try Seaclear II charting software. You can download the charts for free from the NOAA website.I have not tried it in the boat yet, but I drove around with a satellite image I converted and calibrated and the short distance I drove it seemed to work well.You have to have a GPS and data cable of course, but most of us have those anyway. I use a Magellan GPS 320 and made my own cable out of an old serial cable.But for those that have a laptop and GPS already this is an alternative to look into.Tim

 

[Ross]

You NEED to KNOW your position, the depth and

your direction of travel and your speed. After that everything is "want to know, have". The NOAA and the Coast Guard Auxillary are doing a new survey that uses GPS, Depth sounders and lap top computers to provide up to date data on the state of the contours of the bottom. Most of the "WantTo Have " toys would enable you to participate in this program. No I don't have a web site. Look it up.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

The truth is...

With the exception of communication devices (VFH, EBIRB, weatherfax, SSB), you don't NEED *any* electronics. A few--i.e. a depth finder--are worthwhile...the rest are only convenient aids that, for too many people, become replacements for learned navigation skills.

 

[Ross]

Even the communication systems are there

for our convenience. An epirb alerts others when we get into trouble. Weather fax realy doesn't change anything merely gives us a little warning about what to expect. VHF can be dispensed with by using a locker full of flags. And SSB is for the people on shore that are concerned about our welfare. We still need only to know where we are, how much water is under our keel and which way we are going. What we may find when we get there is always good for any explorer

 

[NautiDuck]

Oh, come on

We're not back in the days of the explorers with sextants and sounding ropes. It is 2007 for crying out loud. Electronic navaids like sounders and chartplotters are not a convenience, they are important navigation tools that tell you more, right this instant, than any hand methods can. Sure you want manual backup but that is what it is - backup.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Needs?

I'll start off by saying I'm a gadget freak.I was also taught to navigate with a compass, chart and lead line.To do a "proper" job of coastal piloting and navigation is a huge work load. I can do it and have done it. Consider that we now have the option of "hiring" a full time navigator that lives in a plastic box and needs no food or salery past a few amp hours a day.Do you keep a navigation log with a DR plot that is up to date every 2-3 seconds? Do you make an entry into a log every 30 minutes noting Heading, Speed (through water), Course Over Ground, Speed Over Ground, True Wind Speed and Direction, Depth, Water Temperature, Current Set and Drift, and Position? Can you even measure these things and log them all in 30 minutes? My system does. It could do it every 5 minutes or every 30 seconds if I asked it to.Do you need all this information? No, of course you don't.The whole point of having tools is to make a job easier or do a job better. The only way to know if the job is being done correctly is to know how to do the job yourself. Keeping a paper log and plotting on a paper chart is prudent as a back-up to keep your silicone diode navigator honest or if you run out of amp hours to feed him and he goes on strike. Although I can pilot and navigate with only the paper charts and NO electronic aid, I choose not to.Any good sailor can navigate with the tools at hand. You don't NEED any of it.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Randy K, you are missing the point

Randy, you used the words "right this instant" in your post. Me thinks you have never been way out in the ocean or you don't really understand how to do piloting and I don't think you are alone. When way out in the ocean there is no reason to know where you are down the the micro minute of latitude and there is no need to know it instantly.When you are piloting you are using your eyes, ears, nose, and throat to keep the boat in the channel and negotiate obstacles. Now I know the current trend is to go sailing by standing at the helm and staring down at the GPS readout but that is not my idea of sailing. If all a person wants to do is look at a computer screen there are much cheaper and more comfortable ways to do that.Someone recently noted that with a globe, a string, a quarts watch, a magnetic compass, and some fair maps of your destination you can do your navigation of the world with aplomb.You see some know that knowing that there is 4.5678923 ft of water under my keel is kinda silly, knowing the wind speed to the tenth of a knot is silly, knowing your position to the 1/100 arc second of lat and long is silly, knowing the time to the microsecond is silly, knowing your weight to the gram is silly, knowing the temperature of your coffee is silly. In almost all cases that do not involve precision engineering is is sufficient to know that your coffee is hot, your weight is 160 lb, the time is 10:05, your position is "just south of the bay bridge approaching the shallows at Whitehall bay, the wind fresh and the depth is 16' and rising with the "and rising" being the more important piece of information.We live in an instant world and sailing is just not like that! Ever hear of "Sail time"? Just unplug dude that is what sailing is all about, feeling the wind in (what is left of) my hair, the sound of water on the hull, seeing the sun come up red as blood after a blustery night on the ocean, relaxing with friends over a glass of wine at a fine anchorage, enjoying hot soup after a long beat to windward. These are the things you will remember.

 

[Robert Gainer]

It doesn’t happen often but

Bill,It doesn’t happen often but if you need to send a mayday knowing where you are with some accuracy and knowing it NOW can be important. And being mid ocean doesn’t decrease the amount of precision needed. Linking up with a ship mid ocean requires that you both know where you are within a reasonable distance.You also said,“Someone recently noted that with a globe, a string, a quarts watch, a magnetic compass, and some fair maps of your destination you can do your navigation of the world with aplomb.”Your use of the word maps may mark you as a beginner because to a mariner that piece of paper is called a chart. But that’s not what caught my interest. I wonder how you can navigate without a sextant or an earlier version of this tool. Even in the great age of discovery under sail the measurement of the elevation of a heavenly body was needed to find your latitude. The measurement of longitude had to wait until the invention of the chronometer. All the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Ross]

Rill, You Nailed it bang on! Captain Bligh

navigated a couple of thousand miles in an open boat with only the most basic of tools. I went walking for pleasure this monday past and just for fun took my GPS with me. For the first half mile it kept track of the distance traveled in feet. And the speed in knots to one decimal place. So now I know exactly how far it is from my front door to the corner of the next block. That would be important if I were planning a rifle shot but if I am just walking for pleasure it doesn't matter. I don't own a cell phone so while I was walking I couldn't make or receive any phone calls. That is good! I like my own company and don't need to chatter on the phone. sometimes I need to be alone.Too many people think that sailing is a means of getting somewhere and fail to realize that sailing is somewhere. I can drive to Chestertown in about two hours and it takes two days by boat. But those are two wonderful days away from the hub-bub of everyday life. As Rat says "it doesn't matter if you get to where you're going or if you go someplace else, or if you don't go anywhere at all. There is nothing better than simply messing about in boats."

 

[Robert Gainer]

Any relevance to today’s sailors

Ross,Until now it has been my practice to navigate with a sextant, leadline and chronometer so I understand the concept of using the basics. My first trans-ocean landfall was in 1974 after a crossing from RI to England in a 22 foot un-powered sailboat with no electronics. When making that landfall I was 1/2 mile north of Bishop Rock Light when I was aiming to be 1/2 mile south of that landmark. I find traditional navigation works just fine. By the way I am thinking of buying a GPS this year after sailing to Bermuda last year with a friend who had one. But I am confused by you comments about Captain Bligh. Do you want today’s sailors to use him as an example of how it should be done? I don’t know of anyone today with the possible exception of Marvin Cramer who has a similar skill set as far as navigation goes. Times have changed and what people are taught and what that can do have changed with the times. I don’t understand why you use him as an example of what can be done in a small boat. Does any thing about his trip have any relevance to today’s sailors? I know the boats are different and the tools he used are different and even his training about the sea is very different then what today’s sailors get. All the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Ross]

Robert, I was merely stating what can be and

has been done. When we discuss "need versus want", Need makes a very short list but "must know" is a very long list. With all of the modern electronics the "must know" list gets shorter.Capt. Bligh's voyage is still considered extraordinary by all standards. Your land fall after crossing an ocean in a small boat is an example of careful attention to detail and what can be achieved. I salute you.

 

[Robert Gainer]

Ross, I agree with you

Ross,I agree with you and Capt. Bligh's voyage is still considered extraordinary today for a good reason. But I also see it as an excellent example of a benchmark to show how the skill level has decreased today.You said “With all of the modern electronics the "must know" list gets shorter.” Because electronics are not bullet proof don’t you need to know more today then in the good old days. Today you need to know some of the backup systems (the old ways) and now you need to understand the new systems as well. When I started out around 1967 relatively few people crossed oceans because you needed to know a lot more then today. Boats today need less skill to get started and get away from the dock. The electronic navigation systems give you answers when before you needed skill and practice to get similar answers. For good or bad I think a lot more people are sailing today with much less skill then you would have found in people doing similar trips 40 years ago.A lot of things have changed along with navigation. When boats were built of wood and canvas you needed a lot more skill when sailing to avoid breaking the boat or blowing out sails. Today that’s not as true so once again less skilled people are out there doing it and when they do get into trouble they are in over their heads and need outside help unlike the sailors of yesteryear.Is this bad? I think for the most part it isn’t too bad. Very few people get into trouble and the simplicity has attracted a lot of fresh blood into the sport. But it would be nice if people would take an interest in adding to their tool chest of skills and study some of the history and techniques of the past.All the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Ross]

As with any hobby there are many level of skill

among the people who sail. There are club racers that know more about sail trim than I will ever know. And there are people that cross oceans with all of the modern electronic tools. But there are also books being published and read by a few that still teach the skills needed to find your way when the electrics go south, your compass fails and your watch stops. I have been following Donna Lange since Ken Barnes had to end his voyage. She knows her position and the course that she must steer and gets the weather reports every day. But she still has to deal with the weather when it comes, has to make repairs in a timely manner and stay on the boat and take care of herself.Everytime I take my boat out I learn something more that may save my life one day.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Bill & Ross

I agree that sailing is the destination and being unplugged so you can enjoy the experience is one of the goals. IMO good seamanship requires navigation/piloting. Time spent plugged into those tasks is time working rather than relaxing. I agree that knowing where the boat is to +/- 3 meters is not needed, in fact knowing where the boat is +/- 5 miles is not required of the skipper. However, as Robert says, there are times when that information could prove vital. Why not have a dedicated navigator aboard that can provide the information to you when/if you require it?I think time spent with your head "out of the boat" makes you a better sailor. Interrupting that to do piloting chores is time with your head inside the boat and pretty much a waste of time unless you have an emergency.I'm sure we could all drive cars that are hand cranked, have no synchromesh on transmission gears, and mechanical brakes. If the goal is to enjoy driving rather than be caught up in the mechanical details of the machine, it makes more sense to drive a car with electric start an automatic transmission and hydraulic brakes. I find it relaxing to automate those tasks that I find tiresome, hence the autopilot, instrument and navigation system.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Emergency navigation

Mr GainerClearly this is not news to you.The globe and string are used to get your great circle route course heading. Your latitude can be approximated by observing the height of the celestial pole and your longitude can be approximated by observing your watch deviation from local noon assuming you set it to GMT to begin with.Pole height can be gotten with your out stretched hand and local noon from a stick stuck over your compass and noting when the shadow crosses due south (less compass deviation and variation of course)The rest is technique and reading a map. I call it a map due to my extensive Army training. Charts are what I make for my commander so he can brief the general. I apologize if this offends your sensibilities but such is the baggage I bring to my sailing.