electric plan omissions and alterations?

[SailingHarry]

I agree with the above with the exception of the Blue Seas 8686. For one he only has 1 bank. For another, if he did have 2 banks that switch lacks flexibility to start from either bank, combine being its only option. Combining a battery that is incapable of engine starting with a charged bank makes no sense.

I would go to one on/off switch and from there to both the panel and starter. If a second bank is planned for the future a 1,2,both switch makes sense.

Mitiempo,

I agree on the 8686 -- it's not really the best idea. The problem is, there isn't a great solution. A bolt-in would be nice, and the 8686 comes close, but it's really not there. And it reflects Blue Seas aversion to the 1-2-b switch, as you point out. I've nearly completed a rather complex "panel board" for my boat, which includes 3 100A surface breakers (one from each battery fuse, one from the switch) feeding 2 small fuse panels (one on each battery breaker) that feed a total of NINE "vampire" (always on) loads. It's a mess, albeit one that I think is neat and orderly. With all the required fusing and distribution near the battery, it's not possible to do what the 8686 wants to do. They sell another panel, an on-off with 8 breakers, that might be possible to make work. But it comes pre-loaded with 15A breakers, and they won't work for your alternator or your house load, requiring changing out two of the breakers at least.

Oh, it is enough to make your head spin!

Harry

 

[mitiempo]

Blue Seas doesn't have an aversion to 1,2,both switches - they have a selection of them in addition to their Dual Circuit Plus.

The panels with on/off aren't designed for battery protection - not only is the breaker not suited to the purpose but it is not close enough to the battery.

As far as njl goes, either an MRBF on the battery or an ANL close to the battery and then on to either an of off switch (Blue Seas 9003e) or a 1,2,both (Blue Seas 9001e) if planning on a second bank in the future are good solutions.
The alternator should be fused near the battery, not on a panel.

None of Blue Seas panel breakers have a high enough AIC rating for battery banks. ANL is the choice for that with a 6000 amp rating.


In your case - 9 always on loads?

Panels are for distribution to various circuits, not for battery fusing which has to be separate.

 

[SailingHarry]

Blue Seas doesn't have an aversion to 1,2,both switches - they have a selection of them in addition to their Dual Circuit Plus.

The panels with on/off aren't designed for battery protection - not only is the breaker not suited to the purpose but it is not close enough to the battery.

As far as njl goes, either an MRBF on the battery or an ANL close to the battery and then on to either an of off switch (Blue Seas 9003e) or a 1,2,both (Blue Seas 9001e) if planning on a second bank in the future are good solutions.
The alternator should be fused near the battery, not on a panel.

None of Blue Seas panel breakers have a high enough AIC rating for battery banks. ANL is the choice for that with a 6000 amp rating.


In your case - 9 always on loads?

Panels are for distribution to various circuits, not for battery fusing which has to be separate.

* I have a Blue Seas 1-2-b on my boat. But they don't seem to build their panels with those switches.
* Many boats (mine, for instance!) have the switch very close to the batteries. On my boat, the alernator goes through a panel breaker, then to the ANL fuse, then to the battery. But, I suspect that those Blue Seas panels could be re-wired on the back to allow one of those breakers to serve as a stop between the alternator and the "hot" lead of the switch, elminiating the need to find another place to mount it.
* Agree 100% on fusing at the battery! Yes, not on or after the switch -- at or near the battery! I did not mean to imply it was a substitute for the battery fuse!
* Nine always on loads:
1&2)battery monitor (H&R)
3&4)battery charger (H&R)
5&6)alt regulator sense and power (as per Balmar instructions -- one could argue it should be on the switched side) (H)
7)bilge pump (H)
8)stereo memory (R)
9)refrigeration (I'm not 100% happy with this one, but it is the recommendation and a common practice. It may change. The fridge folks want a VERY short wire to reduce voltage drop during startup inrush. Also, since it really is an "always on" load, putting it after the switch means the switch cannot be turned off when leaving the boat with the fridge loaded with food) (H)
It breaks down to 6 on the house side, 3 on the reserve side
And 10), although it isn't in my fuse panel, is the alternator output.

Harry

 

[Stu Jackson]

Harry, the only two "loads" I see as "always on" are the stereo memory and the bilge pump. The charger is a load, and many panels include them with a switch, so it shouldn't be always on. The fridge is a load and an option but a strange one for an "always on", although I fail to see why it shouldn't be switched if the wiring is sized properly - there are going to be days that one wants the boat "on" but the fridge off, and it's not appropriate to get into one of those "do you keep your fridge on when you're away from the boat?" discussions here.

The battery monitor is not a load. It is a measurement device that in most cases loses its memory if switched.

Most alternator regulators are switched at the boat's ignition switch and shouldn't be always on because a regulator steps through its program algorithms - if left always on, it wouldn't start the alternator in a bulk phase.

The alternator output is not a load. It is a charging source when the alternator is running.

So we have two, not nine or ten.

 

[SailingHarry]

Harry, the only two "loads" I see as "always on" are the stereo memory and the bilge pump. The charger is a load, and many panels include them with a switch, so it shouldn't be always on. The fridge is a load and an option but a strange one for an "always on", although I fail to see why it shouldn't be switched if the wiring is sized properly - there are going to be days that one wants the boat "on" but the fridge off, and it's not appropriate to get into one of those "do you keep your fridge on when you're away from the boat?" discussions here.

The battery monitor is not a load. It is a measurement device that in most cases loses its memory if switched.

Most alternator regulators are switched at the boat's ignition switch and shouldn't be always on because a regulator steps through its program algorithms - if left always on, it wouldn't start the alternator in a bulk phase.

The alternator output is not a load. It is a charging source when the alternator is running.

So we have two, not nine or ten.

Stu,

I think we may have a semantics question going here. Some of those items aren't much of a load, agreed, but they still need a connection to the battery, with a fuse.

With regard to the charger, the Xantrex manual says "Try to avoid routing wiring through an electrical distribution panel..." How do most folks wire the charger? If it goes through the house panel, it again requires the battery switch to be on when you go ashore.

With regard to the Balmar regulator, there is a seperate wire from the ignition that "activates" it. The sense goes direct to the battery, and according to their manual, the power wire (7A load!) "should be connected to the same location as the Positive Battery Sense Wire."

The alternator output goes directly to the battery, and needs to be fused.

I can see merit with each of a dozen theories about the fridge, and can't get strongly on board with any of them. I do have a toggle switch on the fridge for definitive control of it. When I find a tasty flavor of Kool-Aid, I'll drink it and make changes. If my fridge goes to my house panel, my power wire run goes from 2 feet to 25 feet -- and that's just the positive, since in either case my ground is 2 feet away. But take a look at online manuals for fridges (say, Adler-Barbour, here: http://www.dometic.com/FileOrganize...488_Adler-Barbour_Installation_Guidelines.pdf) where they recommend wiring direct to the battery, and the house panel is a not-recommended third choice.

My count of 9 or 10, or even 8, is that each one of these lines needs to be connected, in some fashion, to the positive terminal of one or both batteries, without an intervening switch and with very short wires. The classic approach is a pile of pigtails on the positive terminals, a real mess. And a proper "planned upgrade" needs to look at most, if not all, of these items and, well, plan for them.

Harry

 

[Stu Jackson]

Yup, semantics, I agree.

 

[mitiempo]

Harry

The charger is an AC load and a DC source. I think Stu made a mistake on this one.

The fridge distance can be overcome as with any load - increase the wire gauge. I would route it through the panel as I have with the ones I have installed and there have never been problems.

The alternator should never go through a panel breaker to the battery or the switch either - it should go direct to the battery with the ANL close to the battery. 2nd bank can be charged with either an ACR or Echo Charge.

As Stu said the battery monitor isn't considered a load but a measurement device.

The Balmar regulator shouldn't draw any power unless the ignition is on.

That leaves the only 2 loads I see - bilge pump and stereo memory.

Blue Seas sure likes their Dual Circuit plus, their only panel alternatives being single bank on/off or 3 separate switches that do no more than a 1,2,both switch. I guess it does sell more switches though.

The solution is to install a 1,2,both switch either near the panel or elsewhere. If the panel is not within a few feet of the batteries the switch should be elsewhere anyway to keep the wire runs shorter.

 

[John Nantz]

Nifty Blue Sea Distribution Panel with Battery Switch

Picked this little jewel up really cheap (well, as far as boat things go) as Blue Sea was going through a model change with the plans of replacing the Off-1-2-Both switch on the house bank.

The house bank switch is located right next to the battery bank so there is a very short run - a matter of so many inches - and the cables would connect exactly to this new one without any alteration.

My plan is to run the windlass circuit off one of the high amperage slots right above the switch and run all the motor circuits (refrigeration, autopilot, water pump, forced air heater, etc.) off the other bank.

Running the motor circuits off the one bank would, for me, really shorten the runs to virtually everything they serve. Motors like low voltage drops in startup so the shorter runs would enable improved electric motor longevity.

Another nice feature is the panel has backlit name label capability (optional kit) so at night this would be handy.

Got this a couple years ago and just haven't got 'round to it. Been sitting nice and safe next to my workbench.

 

[mitiempo]

That is a nice panel. Buy the backlight kit soon as it may not be available in the future. All Blue Seas panels come with it already installed now.

Do you mean you are going to install a breaker for the windlass in the panel? What size and for which wattage of windlass?

 

[Maine Sail]

Picked this little jewel really cheap (well, as far as boat things go) up as Blue Sea was going through a model change with the plans of replacing the Off-1-2-Both switch on the house bank.

The house bank switch is located right next to the battery bank so there is a very short run - a matter of so many inches - and the cables would connect exactly to this new one without any alteration.

My plan is to run the windlass circuit off one of the high amperage slots right above the switch and run all the motor circuits (refrigeration, autopilot, water pump, forced air heater, etc.) off the other bank.

Running the motor circuits off the one bank would, for me, really shorten the runs to virtually everything they serve. Motors like low voltage drops in startup so the shorter runs would enable improved electric motor longevity.

Another nice feature is the panel has backlit name label capability (optional kit) so at night this would be handy.

Got this a couple years ago and just haven't got 'round to it. Been sitting nice and safe next to my workbench.

I recently installed that exact panel on a customers boat. It's a nice one. My only complaint is that I don't always like battery switches in panels. I hinge most of my installations and battery cable is inflexible at best and the installation really needs proper tailing & support of the battery switch wires. This installation required 18" X 3 wires of additional 1/0 wire so the panel could open perfectly and without undue strain. More often than not the panel is a long way from the batteries so running two banks worth of 1/0 wire, plus the starter wire, becomes more costly than the #4 I might use for the panel power from a switch located closer to the bank....

I did notice they no longer offer that panel which is too bad because there are good uses for them..


On a brighter note SBO sailors are a good lot. I spotted All-U-Get's boat in AIS a few miles away and then hailed him on VHF 16. He responded immediately and we switched to another channel. In a day and age where a solid half the boats on the water seem to be breaking the law and not monitoring 16 All-U-Get was......!!!!! Kudos to All-U-Get for putting up with all the garbage radio checks and chit chat on 16 and doing the right thing.!!

 

[John Nantz]

Um.... did I say a "couple" years ago?

Well, guess time flys when you're having fun. Must have been about 5 years ago.

That is a nice panel. Buy the backlight kit soon as it may not be available in the future. All Blue Seas panels come with it already installed now.

Do you mean you are going to install a breaker for the windlass in the panel? What size and for which wattage of windlass?

Thanks for the warning about the backlight kit. I just might be out of luck now. Darn.

As for the windlass breaker - I've got all the hardware in a plastic shopping bag somewhere and I can't put my fingers on it at the moment. Did a quick scan in the garage and didn't spot it but it's out there.... somewhere.

The windlass is a nice Lofrans 1000W "Progress One" with a gypsy for 5/16" HT rope/chain rode. It's been a few years now and I just don't remember all the details and I can't find all the pieces either to help do a memory refresh. It's all out there somewhere.

The other part of the plan was to get a watermaker to put amidships so I don't have to carry so much water in the bow tank and thereby offset some of the windlass/chain weight. That project hasn't gotten anywhere either because Village Marine changed owners and doubled their price! Dang! And I really liked working with the old Village Marine Seattle rep here. He was really knowledgeable and helpful.

 

[mitiempo]

John

Rather than a breaker for the windlass I would use an ANL fuse. In a long run I would fuse both near the windlass and near the battery. 1000 watts is about 84 amps.

 

[FourPoints]

before you try to find a Blue Sea SKU that fits your needs, check out http://www.bassproducts.com/. these guys used to manufacture all the panels for blue sea, and they use the same breakers so you're not getting any less quality, and you can still pick up a replacement blue sea breaker at west marine and pop it in if you ever have one fail. They will do a custom panel for you, and probably cheaper than the blue sea panel retails for.

 

[SailingHarry]

Harry
The alternator should never go through a panel breaker to the battery or the switch either - it should go direct to the battery with the ANL close to the battery. 2nd bank can be charged with either an ACR or Echo Charge.

I have to disagree here. My battery ANL fuse is 200A. That means that all wires downstream of it need to be #1 (in an engine room). I don't want to run a #1 to my alternator (although it might have been cheaper!), so I have a 100A surface mount breaker right after the ANL, and that goes to the alternator.

It's not really a "panel" like my main house panel. But it is on a nice "panel" along with my regulator, some other big breakers, a couple small fuse blocks (for those "wires" -- call them loads, measuring devices, or whatever -- they still need fuses). The whole mess is but a foot or so from my batteries.

I ought to draw up a diagram, so it makes more sense. Not a wire in the bunch is over 18" or so, many under 10"

Harry

 

[mitiempo]

Harry

What size is the wire from the alt and what is its output?

 

[SailingHarry]

Harry

What size is the wire from the alt and what is its output?

The alternator is rated at 94A. It will likely never see that current, because it is feeding a pair of T-105's, but that just means it is lightly loaded -- a good thing.

The wire is a #6. #6, in an engine room, is rated for 102A, so it is ample.

The voltage drop calculates to under 3%, which is good, but given the remote sensing of the alternator the voltage drop is not overly relevant (as long as it isn't extreme).

The #6 wire requires a 100A circuit protection at the battery end, hence my 100A breaker after the ANL battery fuse.

Harry