Electric Ferries Coming to Maine?

[TomY]

After spending my adult life working in the mechanical contracting/engineering business, I'm always up for a good science experiment. My boat had a 35 yo MD7A in it. Rather than mess around with it I looked into repowering it with a Beta 14. I've owned diesel trucks, car, tractors, excavation equipment. For whatever the reason the smell of diesel on boats has always been repulsive to me.
So I decided to conduct another science experiment & installed an electric drive. Being able to fabricate, select all the components, install a solar system that charges not only the propulsion bank but also the house bank, it's been alot fun. Hell I even installed a 48 volt element in a water heater & use the propulsion bank to power it, the bank just sits there most of the time because after all it's a sailboat.
For the record this experiment wasn't cheap. With all the stuff I've done to make this work for me, could've bought a Beta 14 in a crate

I'm a power boater, sport fishing fanatic at heart. But my back is trashed so wanting to stay on the water a sailboats motion allows me to. Sailboats, they're friggin slow so whether it has a diesel that moves you at 6 knots or an electric drive that moves you at 4, it's still slow..

Technology wise, the drives are drives. I think batteries will continue to develop. Question becomes will developing technology allow the prices to drop? I don't think so.

Thanks for taking the time. It's a nice clean installation. It's so amazing how much goes away in the engine compartment with an electric conversion. I'm still sailing in an area where many sailboats have no engine. It's no stretch for me to see how e-propulsion fits for many sailors. Especially now as so many old boats will require re powering; some sailors will fit into an e-power range.

Even power boater interest is growing - evidently, as Hinckley has put out a small-ish picnic/skiff boat that is e-power.

Hinckley is nobody's fool in marine marketing (they quit 99% sailboat production way back ), they don't want to leave themselves out as the boat buying market changes along with the world.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Misfits, what's the comparative hp rating on that motor vs a diesel? Is the physical footprint similar to diesel with batteries compared to fuel tank, weight, etc.?

I love the idea of electric propulsion on a boat. I see few disadvantages and a better and better future for electric drives.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Bob J.]

Misfits, what's the comparative hp rating on that motor vs a diesel? Is the physical footprint similar to diesel with batteries compared to fuel tank, weight, etc.?

I love the idea of electric propulsion on a boat. I see few disadvantages and a better and better future for electric drives.

-Will (Dragonfly)

The motor is 10KW continuous which works out to 13HP, same as the MD7A that was originally installed. When we look at efficiency, electric wins in my opinion. I can motor along at 3.5 knots, turning 350-400 RPM's at the motor, 220 RPM's at the prop consuming 15 AH/700 watts out of the battery bank. 700 watts rounded up is 1HP. How do you beat that?

The place where the fuel tank sat has been converted to the propulsion bank battery box. So weight wise, 4-12 volt, FLA 150 AH batteries weigh 85# a piece. The drive & helical gear drive along with the drop pan 140#'s works out to 480#'s +-.

The MD7A weighed 385#'s. Toss 20 gallons of diesel into the mix, 150#'s plus the tank.
Weight wise in my case, pretty close.

 

[Hunter216]

How interesting you should bring this up. I was just thinking about this because there is a company that claims to have an induction transformer called a bi-toroid that operates at an apparent infinite efficiency.

The claim is that they don't believe in being able to break the laws of conservation of energy, just that they don't understand how this device can do what it does.
I was thinking about sailing. There are, as you say, lots of examples of stored energy being released by a smaller input of energy, but there are also a few examples of an appearance of getting more out than put into a closed system. Sailing is that example that comes to mind.
Ice boats and high performance sailboats can outrun the wind that is pushing them. No stored energy being released, just the energy of air pushing on a foil of limited size, moving a heavier than air object, at a faster rate of speed than the air.
What if, what this electrical transformer was doing was analogous to sailing at an optimum angle to the applied force such that it generated an apparent greater force as the magnetic field rotated?
The bi-toroid doesn't seem to experience any back-EMF. Is that because it isn't moving elections at a perpendicular angle, but rather 33 deg off the perpendicular?
Anyhow, I thought sailing a great analogy to start with.

-Will (Dragonfly)

It would appear that this was patented in 2014 but has yet to go commercial or at least a quick Google search didn’t reveal anything. If the tech really does what the video claims you would think it would have caught the attention of big business by now???

 

[Will Gilmore]

I believe it is unbelievable and more research is being done to figure it out. A couple of articles I found indicated it was being taken seriously, but not as a "perpetual motion" machine. The company appears to be real.

However, it illustrates JS's point about how there are phenomena that give the impression of breaking the laws of thermodynamics, but don't actually do so.
For such a thing to happen, there would have to be one of two things, either spontaneous acceleration or mass. Energy doesn't exist on its own. It is an expression of the relationship of matter within a frame of reference. Something has to cause that relationship to change.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Hunter216]

I believe it is unbelievable

Yes at first the concept appears to be a scam. However after watching the videos Mr Heins comes across as sincere, or he’s an amazing actor as the presentation is hard to watch, no one is that good an actor!

I only have a basic understanding of this type of thing so when I hit an electronic concept that is challenging I fall back on my high school teachers advice and think of the flow of electrons as how water acts.

Mr Heins has apparently overcome the “backflow” resistance in a “normal” transformer by creating a alternate pathway where the flow is NOT restricted.

 

[TomY]

The motor is 10KW continuous which works out to 13HP, same as the MD7A that was originally installed. When we look at efficiency, electric wins in my opinion. I can motor along at 3.5 knots, turning 350-400 RPM's at the motor, 220 RPM's at the prop consuming 15 AH/700 watts out of the battery bank. 700 watts rounded up is 1HP. How do you beat that?

The place where the fuel tank sat has been converted to the propulsion bank battery box. So weight wise, 4-12 volt, FLA 150 AH batteries weigh 85# a piece. The drive & helical gear drive along with the drop pan 140#'s works out to 480#'s +-.

The MD7A weighed 385#'s. Toss 20 gallons of diesel into the mix, 150#'s plus the tank.
Weight wise in my case, pretty close.

PEGGY BAWN, an 1894 woodie came over from Ireland (on a freighter) over 10 years ago to sail the wooden boat circuit in New England. She never had an auxiliary and I doubt you could have fit a diesel into the wineglass shape.

But it was easy (relatively) to fit it with an electric auxiliary (8.5 Kw), set off center. Boats like this are perfect candidates for E-power. Plus, weight (batteries) can be adjusted for it's designed/intended use.

I met and became friends with the Captain, a Scotsmen. He and the owner did all the Maine races and then Iain (the captain) sailed the Peggy Bawn down through Southern NE (owner drove) for the races in that area.

Not much (any?) solar but Iain never seemed daunted. He's an old school sailor and 'sailed the bloody boat' to Nantucket. He likely needed the auxiliary primarily for getting through the Cape Cod Canal which you can't sail through.

In fact, he would sail the PEGGY BAWN in and out of Rockport Harbor, onto the docks, for weeks as they sea trialled her after setting it up from shipping.

 

[Hunter216]

PEGGY BAWN, an 1894 woodie came over from Ireland (on a freighter) over 10 years ago to sail the wooden boat circuit in New England. She never had an auxiliary and I doubt you could have fit a diesel into the wineglass shape.

But it was easy (relatively) to fit it with an electric auxiliary (8.5 Kw), set off center. Boats like this are perfect candidates for E-power. Plus, weight (batteries) can be adjusted for it's designed/intended use.

View attachment 174514

I met and became friends with the Captain, a Scotsmen. He and the owner did all the Maine races and then Iain (the captain) sailed the Peggy Bawn down through Southern NE (owner drove) for the races in that area.

Not much (any?) solar but Iain never seemed daunted. He's an old school sailor and 'sailed the bloody boat' to Nantucket. He likely needed the auxiliary primarily for getting through the Cape Cod Canal which you can't sail through.

In fact, he would sail the PEGGY BAWN in and out of Rockport Harbor, onto the docks, for weeks as they sea trialled her after setting it up from shipping.
View attachment 174515

Beautiful!

Looks like she is for sale.

Historic Cutter Peggy Bawn Designed by GL Watson Is Up for Sale

The famous cutter Peggy Bawn that last raced on Dublin Bay at the 200th-anniversary harbour regatta in 2017 is up for sale with an asking price of €300k.

afloat.ie

 

[TomY]

Hell I even installed a 48 volt element in a water heater & use the propulsion bank to power it, the bank just sits there most of the time because after all it's a sailboat.

Another thing that struck me was your addition of a 48 V element. That's brilliant as at times you have power to burn off from your solar.

I have friends that are contemplating adding refrigeration to their coastal sailer. They have a large solar panel mounted on dinghy davits and a Torqueedo outboard. The panel keeps everything onboard well charged, including the Torqueedo. They usually have a surplus so hence the reefer addition.

BAck to your water heater element. More than one diesel gets turned on with hot water in mind(I'm guilty at times!) perhaps to power instead of sailing or just sitting at anchor while taking care of refrigeration needs(the primary reason diesels run in anchorages).

It's all so backwards in it's inefficiency compared to a solar panel passively providing hot water on a sunny day.

 

[Hunter216]

The motor is 10KW continuous which works out to 13HP, same as the MD7A that was originally installed. When we look at efficiency, electric wins in my opinion. I can motor along at 3.5 knots, turning 350-400 RPM's at the motor, 220 RPM's at the prop consuming 15 AH/700 watts out of the battery bank. 700 watts rounded up is 1HP. How do you beat that?

The place where the fuel tank sat has been converted to the propulsion bank battery box. So weight wise, 4-12 volt, FLA 150 AH batteries weigh 85# a piece. The drive & helical gear drive along with the drop pan 140#'s works out to 480#'s +-.

The MD7A weighed 385#'s. Toss 20 gallons of diesel into the mix, 150#'s plus the tank.
Weight wise in my case, pretty close.

I’m curious about some other potential differences:

1) Does the electric motor spin in both directions (prop forward or reverse) or is that handled by some type of gearbox? Could you go from fairly high rev forward to reverse or have to idle down to change direction? Just trying to understand how the boat would handle compared to fuel powered.

2) Is the amount of heat in the engine compartment comparable?

3) I would assume the electric motor is quieter but is it almost silent? My only experience is with a small trolling motor while fishing and they are pretty “stealthy”.

 

[Bob J.]

Another thing that struck me was your addition of a 48 V element. That's brilliant as at times you have power to burn off from your solar.

Thank you for the compliment Tom, much appreciated.
The element is 1000 watts, draws 20AH.
I turn the heater on in the morning for 30-45 minutes & have enough hot water for the day to wash dishes & take a cockpit shower in the evening. The solar system is 2- 24 volt 100 watt panels wired in series. Typically 2-3 hours & the 48 volt bank is back to 100%, then we top off the 12 volt house bank.
I added refrigeration last year, it was a good investment. For the record I also have a 2200 watt Honda on board for those times when you need to generate power the old fashion way. Which in my case usually is the trip up the Penobscot to Winterport in the fall.

Someone on the list, forgive me forget who it was, put up a schematic using double pole, double throw transfer switches to switch panels from series to parallel. In my case keep them in series (48 volt bank), parallel for the house bank. So I definitely want to do that plus been thinking about adding a 12 volt 50 watt panel to each existing 24 volt 100 watt panel. In theory this would give me close to 48 AH a day for the 48 volt propulsion bank. The science experiment will continue

 

[Will Gilmore]

Does the electric motor spin in both directions (prop forward or reverse) or is that handled by some type of gearbox? Could you go from fairly high rev forward to reverse or have to idle down to change direction?

turning 350-400 RPM's at the motor, 220 RPM's at the prop

Sounds like there's a gear box. I was wondering why, but reverse might be easier to achieve that way. I think I remember reading reversible electric motors are significantly more expensive.

Tom's question made me think of the regenerative benefits of electric. Under sail, an electric auxiliary could become a dynamo electric generator. Maybe reduce the efficiency of sailing a little, but you are still dragging that prop through the water anyhow.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Bob J.]

I’m curious about some other potential differences:

I have forward & reverse. I can switch between them with no issues. Not sure I'd hammer down between the two, wouldn't do it on power boat. Let's face it sailboats don't back down for s***. At least mine doesn't. That's another thing about electric, I can turn 25 RPM's at the motor which really does give you more control when compared to it's ICE counterpart.

Heat wise in the engine compartment, no comparison between the two. Silent, compared to a ICE, yes. It's not stealthy like a trolling motor but you don't have that mind numbing drone like a ICE.

 

[JohnShannon]

I saw a yacht with e-propulsion in a marina, sounded a little bit like the Jetson's car quiet but not inaudible. As to heat the motor is 90%+ efficient vs a diesel that is 30% efficient so the waste heat goes down by 6X give or take.

It is a great tech if you can be satisfied with the range.

 

[Bob J.]

Tom's question made me think of the regenerative benefits of electric. Under sail, an electric auxiliary could become a dynamo electric generator. Maybe reduce the efficiency of sailing a little, but you are still dragging that prop through the water anyhow.

-Will (Dragonfly)

I've played with props & started out with a 14x10 3 bladed sailboat prop.
Last year put a 12x12.5, 4 bladed prop that belongs on a ski, wake board boat. It has incredible bite to it, much more control. I picked up 1/2 a knot at the same amp draw compared to when the 14x10 was on her. I think of it as an egg beater.

Anything over 4 knots while sailing I can regen 1-1.5 AH. I guess if one was doing serious long distance sailing that would be beneficial. If drag becomes an issue in light air, I free wheel it at 0 amp draw.

 

[Hunter216]

It has incredible bite to it, much more control.

I found the same thing on a bow rider I had. My son got into wake boarding so relatively slow speed compared to water ski. The ideal wakeboard speed was the same as when the boat would plane so I was constantly adjusting throttle and/or contemplating a new boat. I changed the 3 blade to 4 and all the issues disappeared.
You wouldn’t think a little piece of metal the size of a prop blade would have that much impact on a loaded 18ft boat!!

 

[jssailem]

@Misfits That is a clean and well engineered design.

I have been thinking a bit about this idea. Telsa has cars now that can travel 300 plus miles before recharging is needed. Their cars weigh in about 4900lbs. A Chevy Malibu by comparison weighs in at 3100 lbs. I suspect the difference is in part the battery.

When I compare that with my 15000 boat I get a bit lost in the amount of energy I will need to have stored to get the boat to safely move under electrical power, about the waters I cruise.

This is where compromise comes into play. If one let's "time" float and I consider the tides, currents, weather and the use of sail power, it is feasible that cruising 300 miles can be accomplished under sail, just not with any time certainty. Retired I can tell myself, "just go where the wind takes you". But not all sailors are willing to do that.

So we fall back on the "auxiliary" power supply. Which leads back to the challenge of power source. With the demands of the PacificNW sailing waters, I find my self looking at the same dilemma the sailors of the early 1800's. Choose to sit at anchor waiting for the tide to change and the wind to come up in the direction I need/want to go or install a steam engine and paddle wheel. Only now it is use a diesel engine that is 30% efficient yet has a fuel source that pacts a lot if energy in a relatively small space, or install an electrical system (90% efficient) requiring a large storage system of energy to accomplish the same power performance.

The time may come when there is a way to provide auxiliary power to save time for the casual sailor. But I suspect it is a ways off. So I will sail when and where the wind permits, and rely on my carbon based fuel system to move me when the weather does not cooperate.

Time may come when we will just beam ourselves where we want to be.
But that I fear will not be much fun.

 

[Bob J.]

@Misfits That is a clean and well engineered design.

Thanks jssailem.
I love your analogy letting time float.
For me, I couldn't think of any better way to put it. I will pack this away in the tool box.

Folks, I had no idea this thread would have morphed into my experience with electric.
If anything else it's an honest tale of my experiment. If anyone has considered going down this road, hope this has shed some insight!
Thanks
Bob

 

[jssailem]

Thank you Bob. I have enjoyed your info. Perhaps a specific thread would be worthy for folk who also want to experiment and invent ideas.

 

[Benny17441]

What are they going to do to produce the electrical power, burn diesel? The power consumption of an electric motor does not relate to RPM but to loads and we all know how wind, currents and adverse weather can multiply the loads a vessel may have to contend with. I don't think batteries are there yet.