Electric bilge pump sometimes fails to prime

Nov 15, 2015
268
J J/30 Seward, AK
Does anyone have problems with their sump pump priming in the bilge? Mine seems to sometimes get air stuck in it until I push the float switch down a few times to stop the motor running, then it bibles a little bit, then primes after one of the pushes on the float switch and emptied the bilge well. It can run an entire day without noticing, which I'm sure is awful for the longevity of the motor. I discovered this after finding bilge water leaking into the cabin...

Thanks!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,672
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Does anyone have problems with their sump pump priming in the bilge? Mine seems to sometimes get air stuck in it until I push the float switch down a few times to stop the motor running, then it bibles a little bit, then primes after one of the pushes on the float switch and emptied the bilge well. It can run an entire day without noticing, which I'm sure is awful for the longevity of the motor. I discovered this after finding bilge water leaking into the cabin...

Thanks!
You either have an in-line check valve, and should not, or you have a low spot in the hose acting as a p-trap...
 
Feb 13, 2016
551
macgreggor venture 224 ohio river
I had check valves at first, they would pump water if I had several inches of water but not less, something with pressure there. Pulled them out and it pumps almost to the last drop now
 
Nov 15, 2015
268
J J/30 Seward, AK
That's right, I do have an inline check valve, and it is also frustrating that it doesn't pump out the last inch of water. Although I thought that was because the float switch turns off before it reaches bottom.

So remove the check valve, huh? The pump has its own check valve?
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Tradeoffs:
A check valve can prevent the water from coming back in during a big heel.
It also can cause the symptoms you just described.

I'd be looking at the location of the through hull where the water goes out. If you aren't likely to submerge ti much and not for long, just remove the check valve. If it's too low on the hull I'd install a through hull in a better location. Somewhere I even read about a through hull mounted on the transom where heeling wouldn't put it under water. I'm wondering if you could also consider a vented loop.

Ken
 
Nov 15, 2015
268
J J/30 Seward, AK
I'd be looking at the location of the through hull where the water goes out. If you aren't likely to submerge ti much and not for long, just remove the check valve. If it's too low on the hull I'd install a through hull in a better location. Somewhere I even read about a through hull mounted on the transom where heeling wouldn't put it under water. I'm wondering if you could also consider a vented loop.

Ken
It's the stock Catalina 30 through hull near the bottom of the transom, never fills with water. The PO definitely made some liberal plumbing decisions in other areas, not always using marine hosing and valves. I suppose I should confirm in the Catalina 30 forum, and maybe just remove it....thanks for the info.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,953
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Does anyone have problems with their sump pump priming in the bilge? Mine seems to sometimes get air stuck in it until I push the float switch down a few times to stop the motor running, then it bibles a little bit, then primes after one of the pushes on the float switch and emptied the bilge well. It can run an entire day without noticing, which I'm sure is awful for the longevity of the motor. I discovered this after finding bilge water leaking into the cabin...
Thanks!
You do not say what kind of bilge pump technology you have, but if it is a cheap Rule centrifugal pump they can "air lock" very easily. Their actual pumping capacity is also below their advertised laboratory-test-derived figure, as well. :( I learned this thru first hand experience.

I suggest changing to a Jabsco chamber type pump. One example:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=9872&familyName=Jabsco+Direct-Drive+Bilge/Shower+Drain+Pump
Our boat came with two of these great pumps, and their internal valve operation acts as a "check valve".
Note B: the Rule pump can also allow back-flooding by allowing syphoning in big seas when the boat is moving fast.

Next, "service" that Rule pump by taking it up on deck and, facing open water, throw it at least 50 feet straight outward. It will do your boat almost as much good there as it does where it is located now.
(Not like I have an opinion or anything...)
:)

Loren
 

SFS

.
Aug 18, 2015
2,070
Currently Boatless Okinawa
Wow, this has been a tough week for pumps. Another thread establishes that Whale pumps are not being supported under warranty by the manufacturer, and now Rule is ruled out.

If the general consensus is that Jabsco heads are nowhere near the best in the business, can we trust them to build a dependable bilge pump?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,672
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Every boat over 24 +/- feet with a bilge & cabin should ideally have a dual pump configuration. I have been harping on this for years but folks rarely go for it.

Pump #1 for a 30 footer would be a 2000GPH+ centrifugal style "oh $hit" pump with the bilge switch mounted slightly higher than the primary nuisance water pump.

The nuisance water pump should be a diaphragm style pump for dealing with nuisance level water. Diaphragm pumps can use check valves but don't normally need them as they tend to self-check.

Premium bilge switches like the Ultra Pump Switch Jr. or Sr. should be used with both pumps.

These problems are generally related to a number of issues:

#1 Poor bilge switch chosen for the task - Ever since the removal of mercury from the Rule etc. float switches the reliability has been about as good as a Yugo and they tend to last about as long as a bag of Doritos at a Grateful Dead concert.. How to Rx? Don't buy unreliable products. The switches from Ultra Safety Systems are about as reliable as they get.

#2 Inadequate bilge pump system design - A good bilge pump system makes use of a "nuisance pump" which is a diaphragm style and a second emergency pump or oh $hit pump which is a high capacity centrifugal type. The nuisance pump does all the routine work and the oh $hit pump is used only in emergency situations and the switch is mounted slightly higher in the bilge. As a bonus a manual "gusher" style pump should be installed with a cockpit handle..

#3 Improper system design and install - Centrifugal Rule type pumps should not have check valves installed in the outlet hose. Check valves are a band-aid at best and owners and even builders often choose them over a proper installation but should not. They are flat out dangerous at best, and battery killers at the very least. It's one of the number one causes of destroyed battery banks other than cheap bilge switches I see. Centrifugal pumps should also use smooth walled hose, utilize a siphon break and have as few bends as possible. The discharge should always be above max heeled waterline in a well designed system. Wire should be sized for the least voltage drop to maximize performance. Centrifugal pumps will never pump anywhere close to their rating "as installed" so the biggest capacity oh $hit pump you can fit is the best choice.


Best bet to avoid these issues:

Install a well designed bilge pumping system utilizing a nuisance pump (diaphragm type). Use quality bilge switches such as those by Ultra Safety Systems, use sufficient wire for minimal voltage drop, use water proof splices for all wiring terminations, make all terminations above bilge height when ever possible, fuse the pumps per manufacturers recommendations and do not use a check valve on any centrifugal type pump. Check valves are fine on a diaphragm pump but a very bad idea on a centrifugal bilge pump...

Sadly the best bilge switch ever made was discontinued because boaters refused to pay for the technology and reliability. I bought an extra before they ran out....;);) That said I have yet to have or see an Ultra Safety Systems bilge switch fail....

Misleading Marketing:

Bilge pumps are some of the most grossly misrepresented items we use on boats today and many of us in the industry believe this is borderline criminal.

We have three major items that inhibit the performance of your pump.

Friction Head Loss
Static Head Loss
Voltage


These pumps are rated at what is commonly called the "open bucket rate" or ZERO HEAD and they are rated at charging voltages of 13.6V.
Fair? Hardly...

In a University of Virginia study, they found most pumps delivered 15-33% less than what the manufacturer claimed even when tested as they rate them at "open bucket"..

One 2000GPH pump that was tested claimed 2000GPH at zero head. Testers found it delivered just 1500GPH at 12V and zero head. This is 500 GPH below what the pump maker lied to the consumer about on the box and we've not even installed it yet to realize head losses. They also claimed the pump to be capable of up to 18' of head, and it could only muster 14' of head at 12V... If voltage drops below 12V the performance gets even worse. That 2000 GPH pump at 10V could only produce approx 420GPH at 7' of head. Seven feet of head is fairly common on a sailboat. Bump that to 12V and we get approx 720GPH. Course this is just static head and does not include for friction head (fittings etc.) and voltage..

Lets look at some actual test data for a 600GPH pump.

600GPH Manufacturer Label (assuming it actually performs at that rating)
Running Pump at 12V = Loss of 141 GPH
3' Static Head = Loss of 179 GPH (3' is NOTHING on a sailboat)
10' of 3/4" Corrugated Hose = Loss of 114 GPH
1 3/4" Thru-Hull Fitting = Loss of 11 GPH

In a typical installation a 600 GPH pump (on a power boat with only 3' of static head) will only deliver 155 GPH "as installed". Now add a check valve, and a sailboats static head, and you are well below 100 GPH for a typical sailboat running a 600GPH pump.

I would urge all boaters:

Do not share hoses
Do not share thru-hull fittings
Do not use check valves on centrifugal pumps
Do not use corrugated hose
Do not allow any dips/water traps in outlet hose
Do not fuse the pump at beyond the manufacturers suggested size
Do not use any 90 Degree fittings

Do use smooth walled hose
Do buy the biggest pump you can fit
Do use quality bilge switches
Do use waterproof splices
Do keep all terminations out of bilge water
Do use wire that results in the least voltage drop
Do use a dual or tri-pump configuration
Do install a high water alarm
Do use a siphon break
 
Feb 13, 2016
551
macgreggor venture 224 ohio river
My 224 has 2 pumps, 2000 on a float and 500 for any small stuff, all smooth hose but since I've repaired leaks I havnt needed anything!
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,953
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
At least one Par/Jabsco electric multi-check valve pump was standard on all the larger Ericson (and Olsons) boats thru the 80's. Also an "ORC Cat. One" manual bilge pump, usually a Whale Gusher 10, mounted per the rule where it can be operated from the helm position with all hatches secured closed.
Those darned old Rule float switches are certainly the "weak link" in the traditional pumping scheme. :(

Seeing how hard it can be to dewater a boat based on some emergencies that happened to friends over the years, I look at this as a minimum pump setup.
As Maine sez, also fit a really large-capacity bilge pump if you can find the room... !

Loren