Dyneema for furler line

[Leeward Rail]

the dyneema in a tight furl is likely to slip between the coiled line not ride on top and contribute more override risk.

When the line is spooled there needs to be some friction between the wraps to keep them from sliding around on the drum and developing over rides.

FWIW : This is exactly why overrides happened when I used dyneema on the trailer winch for the C22 we owned.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

If you tighten the fore stay, most if not all of the problem will go away

I went out a couple of times after tightening it. Marginal improvement if any. . Is it better to have the fore block closer or further away from the drum? The bow pulpit allows it to be positioned about 6" or about 14" away

As I'm thinking about this... I don't see why it has to be one or the other. If you are retrieving your furler line from the cockpit (as most people do), then all of the line from the last fairlead to the spool can be dyneema... and your hands will never touch it. That line needs to be strong but it does not need to be thick. You could butt-splice two lines together and make the end nearer the cockpit a bit thicker and easier on the hands and keep the end of the line nearer the furler thin.

I agree with you. It will take some measuring so that the dyneema does not enter the cockpit

Mcmaster has a wide range of springs - this list is just the stainless options, they also have bronze springs.

The question is now what is an appropriate spring rate?

Thinking outside the box, would adding a foam luff to the head sail reduce the total number of wraps on the furler?

Sounds totally plausible. Perhaps my sail is on the upper end of sizing for what this furler was made for?

 

[dlochner]

I went out a couple of times after tightening it. Marginal improvement if any. . Is it better to have the fore block closer or further away from the drum? The bow pulpit allows it to be positioned about 6" or about 14" away

Distance is less important than angle. I don't recall what furler you have. If it happens to be an old furled, get rid of it. I have had 2 furlers, a Schaefer and a Hood Seafurl, once I got the feed angles and the forestay tension right they both worked well. The Furlex I had was a major PITA until I consigned it to the metal recycler.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Distance is less important than angle. I don't recall what furler you have. If it happens to be an old furled, get rid of it. I have had 2 furlers, a Schaefer and a Hood Seafurl, once I got the feed angles and the forestay tension right they both worked well. The Furlex I had was a major PITA until I consigned it to the metal recycler.

I have an old Hood furler. It looks the same as this Hood Seafurl 800 Bearing Replacement. I'll get some pictures posted early next week

 

[SycloneDriver]

A picture of the drum filled with line would be helpful. Include the lead block in the picture so we can see the angle.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Here's a few pics. The angle is off but even when I think I had it right, this issue still occurred, although not as severe. I'll grab an close up pic this week

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Here's a few pics as promised. Sail was unfurled at the dock in preparation for storage. Boat was facing down wind

 

[dlochner]

Image_6015 shows the start of the over wrap. That is likely the cause of your issue. The block also keeps twisting, not sure what the cause is, it might be related to the over wrap. Lowering the block an inch or so may help the feed.

A new spring, if one can be installed might help prevent the block from twisting.

Replacing the line with dyneema, won't improve things.

 

[rgranger]

A new spring, if one can be installed might help prevent the block from twisting.

I did not use a block there. I used this.

 

[jssailem]

Watching those images in sequence, I agree with @dlochner observations. The spring block is not helping you. Perhaps it is too close and a little low to the furler drum.

 

[All U Get]

I had removed the center core from mine eight years ago and it worked fine. There’s a lot of comments on the Hood web saying to do this. Also keeping tension on the reefing line while deploying the sail really helped us.

Could you bring it to the Chesapeake so we can try it out?

 

[Yoman Bosun]

After lots of observations, experimenting, changing lines, etc, the spool on my furler still fills up and jams. I've come to the conclusion that it would be fine if I had a jib but the foresail is far past the mast. I removed the core on the last line I had and it helped a bit. The new line has a smaller overall diameter, a very solid feeling core and was recommended by a local rigger. The boat has Schaefer lead blocks on the stanchions and a spring mounted block on the bow pulpit. The line also passes through the center of a large plastic cleat in the cockpit.
I was thinking about switching the majority of the line to Dyneema to help reduce the bulk on the spool since I could potentially drop down to something as small as 1/8" while increasing strength. I'm aware that Dyneema does not feel good on the hands and it will take some experimenting/measuring to find a balance between spool bulk and comfort. My main concern, and the primary reason I am posting this, is chafe. The last line, which was 20 some years old, would shed dust at certain points along it's path. Would Dyneema be an acceptable line for this application?

View attachment 210559

Dynema with a cover for the length you handle & winch is a good choice.
20 years is a very long time for synthetic fibers to be in the sun and weather. UV breaks down the fibers & will cause the line to shed as well as become weak & brittle. It's best to replace all running rigging before they fail when you need them most. Remember your worst crew is Mr. Murphy and he almost always comes along...

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Watching those images in sequence, I agree with @dlochner observations. The spring block is not helping you. Perhaps it is too close and a little low to the furler drum.

The spring in the spring block is broken in multiple places so there's zero springiness left. You may or may not be able to see the marks on the pulpit from various positions I've tried. this block seems almost pointless since it has very little restriction. The line pretty much goes where it wants on the drum. @rgranger's suggestion for hardware might also work. I can try that in the spring

As for the distance, I have the option that you see in the pic and about 14-16" away from the drum. If needed I can probably fabricate something to get the block in between those distances. What is a recommended distance?

I had removed the center core from mine eight years ago and it worked fine. There’s a lot of comments on the Hood web saying to do this. Also keeping tension on the reefing line while deploying the sail really helped us.

Could you bring it to the Chesapeake so we can try it out?

The original, 20 yo, 5/16" line had some of it's core removed. I removed some more of it and it did help but it did not eliminate the issue. That's when I went to a rigger to buy some new line. He recommended what you see in the picture. It's a very hard line and I believe it's low stretch. If anyone knows what type of line this is, it would help me figure out if the cover is strong enough to pull out some of the core. I do sail in some heavy conditions so the strength of that line is vital.

I'd love to sail the Chesapeake bay!

Dynema with a cover for the length you handle & winch is a good choice.
20 years is a very long time for synthetic fibers to be in the sun and weather. UV breaks down the fibers & will cause the line to shed as well as become weak & brittle. It's best to replace all running rigging before they fail when you need them most. Remember your worst crew is Mr. Murphy and he almost always comes along...

The line in the pics is about two years old

 

[Mifeo]

Hi. New here on the forum, but even so may have some prospective…I just went through my genoa furling setup because it had too much friction on the windup.

It looks like the pulpit stanchion would interfear with that furling line no matter what. Is this true? I might say that if the furler wound the other direction, or the if furling line were on the port side of the boat, with the same wind direction on the furler, it would work better; the forward block would have tension and orientation provided by the furling line the spring would not be relevant.

Also it looks like the furler is outside the lifeline stanchions. If so, why is the last block inside the stanchions? You could replace the last block with a fairlead, however, I think that it would still have a winding problem as it is too close to the spool.

It’s 8mm furling line which is the same size as that on my 11m boat. You might be just as well served with 6mm furling line. You don’t have to fabricate any dynnema combos and it doesn’t have the slippery issues as with dynnema.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

It looks like the pulpit stanchion would interfear with that furling line no matter what. Is this true? I might say that if the furler wound the other direction, or the if furling line were on the port side of the boat, with the same wind direction on the furler, it would work better; the forward block would have tension and orientation provided by the furling line the spring would not be relevant.

I'm not sure what you mean by interfere. When the furling line is pulled (to furl the sail) the block stands up. I honestly don't know how much benefit the spring will provide if replaced. The issues occur regardless of which way the wind is blowing.

Also it looks like the furler is outside the lifeline stanchions. If so, why is the last block inside the stanchions? You could replace the last block with a fairlead, however, I think that it would still have a winding problem as it is too close to the spool.

The stanchion blocks wrap around the stanchion. They are ran on the outside because of the curve of the boat. If I ran them on the inside, the line would rub against the "fairlead"/retainer on the block. If the spring block was ran on the outside, the line would push against the metal of the block and try to "collapse" or bend the spring. What is an acceptable distance between the spring block and spool?

It’s 8mm furling line which is the same size as that on my 11m boat. You might be just as well served with 6mm furling line. You don’t have to fabricate any dynnema combos and it doesn’t have the slippery issues as with dynnema.

The line that I currently have is about the smallest I can go without hurting our hands. I'm not sure on the size or brand/model

 

[Mifeo]

The stanchion blocks wrap around the stanchion. They are ran on the outside because of the curve of the boat. If I ran them on the inside, the line would rub against the "fairlead"/retainer on the block. If the spring block was ran on the outside, the line would push against the metal of the block and try to "collapse" or bend the spring. What is an acceptable distance between the spring block and spool?
View attachment 210994


The line that I currently have is about the smallest I can go without hurting our hands. I'm not sure on the size or brand/model

For distance from block to spool I will say as far as practical. At some point the furling line becomes a trip hazard or interferes with something else as you move the block aft. There is also elevation, you want the furling line coming into the spool perpendicular to the axis of the spool and aligned with the center of the spool as best as possible.

Has this ever worked well?

 

[Project_Mayhem]

For distance from block to spool I will say as far as practical. At some point the furling line becomes a trip hazard or interferes with something else as you move the block aft. There is also elevation, you want the furling line coming into the spool perpendicular to the axis of the spool and aligned with the center of the spool as best as possible.

Has this ever worked well?

It's had problems since the day I bought the boat. Furler was serviced a couple of years ago

 

[Mifeo]

Yup, same as mine. I bought the boat last April and found the furler to be hinky. It would “cam” as I wound it. Only happened when under a lot of strain, like when I really needed it to work right. I’d get overruns and bunch of wraps at the bottom flange before it would begin trying to spool. I was looking at bringing the whole thing down to figure out was wrong. I decided to get detailed with the furling line runs, blocks, etc. Saved myself a ton of headaches and money…. What I found when critically assessing it was that my furling line was ran and located in a 1/2*assed fashion in spite of the fact that it had probably been that way for many years with the prior owner. I say this to encourage you to get super detailed.

What I learned? The run for that furling line should be well done (I hate to say done in seamanlike manner, but true).

 

[thinwater]

Watching those images in sequence, I agree with @dlochner observations. The spring block is not helping you. Perhaps it is too close and a little low to the furler drum.

Do you furl into the wind or off the wind? Try on a beam-broad reach with very light back tension on the sheets.

The last guide is too close. No chance for the line to fan out. Can you move it back to the next rail and still maintain 90 degrees? If not, mount a fair lead to the toe rail or deck. It does NOT need to be a pulley type, just at the right place. Low friction rings work.

Also, the line is too large. Looks like 5/16, not 1/4 (easy to confuse). I use decored 1/4-inch stayset on my F-24 (overlapping jib). I used decored 3/8 Samson XLS on my PDQ 34 (large genoa). Decore the front 15 feet of so. The blog you mentioned showes decored line. Your line is way too fat. Finally, forget "fuzzy" line and get something smooth, like Stayset. Fuzzy line loves to tangle like that and the friction is too high. Wear gloves. You do not need Dyneema for a boat this small--the load is not that high.

Is it possible that it was set up to furl the other rotation? Remember, furlers can go either way, based on which side the UV cover is on. There is nothing sacred about CW vs. CCW. Maybe this is not the first jib.

Sounds like it was set up wrong from seller. Not unusual. The cure to many running rigging problems is smaller line and simpler blocks (fewer swivels--the shackles are usually enough). "Fat ropes" is a common rigger's curse.

(The blog with the Hood instructions is mine. The lead is higher--it is slack in this image because I am loading new line. The hitch is not required, but it helps take some load off the knot, and the decored line makes a tiny knot. You really do not want to run all the line off the drum anyway.)

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Do you furl into the wind or off the wind? Try on a beam-broad reach with very light back tension on the sheets.

We've tried every wind direction and various amount of tension. Every once in a while it'll work correctly but it's not easily repeatable

The last guide is too close. No chance for the line to fan out. Can you move it back to the next rail and still maintain 90 degrees? If not, mount a fair lead to the toe rail or deck. It does NOT need to be a pulley type, just at the right place. Low friction rings work.

I believe I can. I will definitely try in the spring. The next rail is around 14-16" away from the one it's on now. It was originally on this one when I got the boat

Also, the line is too large. Looks like 5/16, not 1/4 (easy to confuse). I use decored 1/4-inch stayset on my F-24 (overlapping jib). I used decored 3/8 Samson XLS on my PDQ 34 (large genoa). Decore the front 15 feet of so. The blog you mentioned showes decored line. Your line is way too fat. Finally, forget "fuzzy" line and get something smooth, like Stayset. Fuzzy line loves to tangle like that and the friction is too high. Wear gloves. You do not need Dyneema for a boat this small--the load is not that high.

I spotted the same line at West Marine today. It's Warp Speed II which has a Dyneema core. The 6mm line they had looked about the same diameter but I'll have to double check. Is this appropriate for this application?

Is it possible that it was set up to furl the other rotation? Remember, furlers can go either way, based on which side the UV cover is on. There is nothing sacred about CW vs. CCW. Maybe this is not the first jib.

No, unfortunately the cover is only on one side. A local loft estimated that the main is about 20 years old and the genoa looks about the same. I'd guess the furler is about 30 years old judging by condition and some paperwork from previous owners

Sounds like it was set up wrong from seller. Not unusual. The cure to many running rigging problems is smaller line and simpler blocks (fewer swivels--the shackles are usually enough). "Fat ropes" is a common rigger's curse.

I will definitely try installing a fairlead

(The blog with the Hood instructions is mine. The lead is higher--it is slack in this image because I am loading new line. The hitch is not required, but it helps take some load off the knot, and the decored line makes a tiny knot. You really do not want to run all the line off the drum anyway.)

That would explain why I had issues fitting the knot in the housing below the drum. After messing with it for an hour or two I resorted to melting the knot to get everything back together